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Is there a "GL" monogram on the rear toggle face or rear of the frame?
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no, there are not any "GL"
Thanks Adrian |
It is a little bit difficult to tell for sure, but it appears that there is a detent in the right side of the stock lug for the early push-button stock. I have recorded 5 other Lugers in the early 10000 range, all lower than 10010 and none with the B suffix. These pieces do have the push-button stock detent in the stock lug. A good clear photo of the right side of the stock lug would be helpful. I would not expect a GL on this series of Luger, but I also would not expect a B suffix.
It also looks like the magazine is of the early flat-button type, but I would not expect this Luger to have an unrelieved frame. Also, the punch crimp at the top of the magazine appears rectangular rather than "D" shaped and the checkering on the button is fairly coarse, which is not usually typical of a DWM produced magazine. A real odd item. A photo of the bottom of the grip with the magazine removed would also be appreciated. http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/detent_copy1.jpg |
I'm in Buenos Aires from Sunday through Thursday of next week if anybody needs any go-between on this item.
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Hello Chico,
It is interesting to learn that you are offering this pistol for sale which we had previously discussed a few months ago. For those collectors who wish to have some insight about this particular pistol, I wish to share my opinions regarding this pistol: 1) It is not unusual for this pistol to have a B-suffix. I am aware of a same pistol with the exact serial number 10000 without a suffix. My explanation of the B-suffix could indicate a dealer sample pistol in comparison to a few Mauser C96 'alphabet' pistols which I have examined (made around 1902-1904) having only a character for a record such as L, M, Q, R, and U. It is interesting to observe that some other early Luger pistols with a B-suffix have different barrel lengths (in one or two cases in caliber 9 mm) which DWM may have been sending out to foreign dealers or military commissions for evaluation or test marketing; 2) Although this pistol does not have an unrelieved frame, it is acceptable that the pistol was provided with a magazine having a flat button. There is no set rule from DWM which dictates the type of (early) magazine for an early Luger pistol. There is nothing odd about this magazine which is absolutely correct and untouched. It is a pity that the push-button stock is missing which would make this pistol more desirable. Maybe the next owner will consider having a replica stock made for this pistol, but the attaching iron has to be made with precision. Cheers, Albert |
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Hi All,
Can somebody be kind enough and give us (or me) more information regarding the Push Button Stock, because this is news to me.:confused: Regards Alf.:) |
Alf,
Some of the first Lugers that employed a shoulder stock had a push button locking mechanism rather than the rotating lever with which we are more familiar. There was no cam and dwell to secure the stock, but rather a catch that fit into a detent in the right stock lug slot as I posted previously. The pushbutton released this catch from the detent. http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...left_copy1.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ight_copy1.jpg Here is an example stock from a presentation carbine: http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/pb_stock.jpg |
Thank Ron, for a very valuable information. Do we have any dates when the rotating lever type as we know it, came into production ?
Alf |
Hello Alfred,
The rotating lever type stock attachment first came into production on the M1902 Luger (Presentation) Carbine in the year 1903. Such an attachment is on a presentation carbine (serial #9112C) with the chamber marking 'HCR 1903'. Albert |
Hello Chico,
I don't want any of that cheap Barcardi rum in my PC!! Give me the real strong stuff and a woman with large coconuts!! Salud, Albert |
Albert,
May I recommend Ron Zapaca, an exquisite solera-style rum from Guatemala. The 30 year old is pure sipping delight. Tom A |
To add to Albert's observation about the rotating lever on the 1903 HCR Presentation Carbine, this is also the same time that the 1903/04 Navy with its board stock and rotating lever attaching iron was produced.
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Tom, you hit it right on with the recommendation/mention of Ron Zapaca - it's the best rum of the world in my opinion. Indeed, it is a superb sipping delight, but I would not use it in a PC. Knowing your fine taste for excellent liqueurs and Lugers, you only go first class! Myself, I usually have to travel in modest style
Cheers, Albert |
To a collector who buy my Luger I'll add 2 bottles of the finest "thing" you can drink, ***
***condition drink the 2 bottles in the same night and don't shoot himself a feet with a $ 27K Luger... Adrian |
Thank You Albert and Ron for your reply :cheers:
Alf. |
Sometimes I get so caught up in the details I fail to see the elephant standing on my foot. I very carefully noted what I thought was odd about the magazine, but Patrice (LU1900) pointed out to me that I missed the most obvious flaw. The magazine has a hole on the left side that is used to stake the follower button. A real flat button magazine doesnâ??t have a hole, the button is threaded and screws into the follower. :thumbup:
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Alf. |
In my opinion, there is no 'flaw' with the magazine and nobody has 'messed' with it. What would be the reason to change a button to a flat-type? It is possible that DWM was using up old parts and combining them with newer parts. The retaining pin at the bottom of the magazine is perfect and untouched, so I believe that the integrity of the magazine is correct even though the flat button was theorically intended for an early unrelieved frame.
Albert |
Alf,
I am sorry to have added to your confusion. The flat-button magazine is required for the very early 1900 frames that have no groove or â??reliefâ? for the magazine follower button. The flat button was threaded and screwed into the magazine follower. The buttons tended to work loose and either made it difficult to put the magazine in the gun or the button could come out and be lost. It was also very difficult to depress this small thin button to load the magazine. To overcome these problems, a raised follower button was designed to make loading easier and, rather than being threaded, the button was an interference fit into the follower and further secured by â??stakingâ? (expanding the button stud like a rivet) through a hole in the opposite side of the magazine. This new design button was also easier to use with the loading tool. Many of the early frames were re-machined, or â??relievedâ?, to allow use of this new type magazine, so an early Luger with an un-relieved frame is somewhat rare. http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload..._mag_copy1.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/std_vs_fb_mag.jpg |
Albert,
I always give due respect to your opinions since you have examined the article first-hand, and the magazine does appear pristine. I have encountered a couple of bogus flat-button magazines, so I hope you will forgive my caution. Regarding â??What would be the reason to change a button to a flat-type?â?, it could be as simple as someone needing a flat-button magazine and not being able to locate an original. The more avaricious answer would be that a mint standard magazine might cost anywhere from $200-$300 depending on type, whereas a mint flat-button magazine is going to run $800-$1000, and not everyone would know how to examine a magazine to determine its authenticity. As to â??The retaining pin at the bottom of the magazine is perfect and untouchedâ?, - G.T. (not that he has anything to do with this magazine) can undetectably swap out a magazine base virtually with his eyes closed. I suspect that there are a number of other enterprising individuals with the required talent to perform such an operation (not necessarily with their eyes closed!) if sufficiently motivated. Since DWM had already determined the inadequacies of the flat-button design, I am a wee bit reluctant to accept that they would employ leftover flat buttons with a later type magazine tube just to use up existing stock. :cheers: |
Hello Ron,
Thank you for your explanations/comments regarding the configuration of flat-button magazines. Technically, you are correct when experts describe genuine flat-button magazines such as the early wood-base type and the Swiss metal insert type. I understand your caution regarding the magazine with this particular Luger pistol even though it appears pristine. I have not had the opportunity to examine this Luger in my hands, however, I would not be able to determine a person's motive to have a flat-button magazine included with this particular pistol when there is no mention of its importance/significance while the pistol is being advertised for sale. Furthermore, with the pistol being in Argentina, I doubt somebody would go out of his way just to enhance the value of the pistol by an additional $500 by providing a (suspicious) flat-button magazine unless the pistol had previously gone through the hands of a crook. I know of a few expert crooks in South America, and if they have any intelligence, they should quickly realize that the frame on this Luger is relieved and it would be a waste of time and money to provide a flat-button magazine with this pistol - they would be better off trying to sell the magazine separately and replace it with a standard commercial magazine. Albert |
Ron,
I should be sorry for keep on asking you to enrich my knowledge on my favourite gun, The Luger. Your knowledge and others like you are a great asset to this forum Thank You for a very clear visual reply. Alfred. :cheers: |
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