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looking for info
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not sure what i have.....other than a p08.
first of all i know it has been refinished. it's a 9mm, has all matching numbers on the gun. even has a dude's name on the back strap. it's a DWM. the only other marks i've found are the crown over N. safety is in german. old guy i bought it from says it has capture papers, so i expect to have those in a day or so. it came with a '41 dated holster. |
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could'nt figure out to post several pics in one post.......
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Brian, welcome to the forum! You have to upload upper right, copy the link and then post it into the reply box, for EACH picture.
What I see and hear so far is a commercial 9mm that was taken into military service. See the Crown N on the left and the 5 digit serial number. Would like to see more pictures. How far is Lebanon from Philly? I live near Allentown (20 miles south) and work in Bensalem, PA. ed |
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what would you like to see?
it has been given a pretty good fluff&buff. i'm probably 1.5-2hrs from philly, about the same from Atown. |
would like to see the "dudes" name on the back, is it scratched like a GI or stamped?
Ed |
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i'd call it stamped.
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Not military marked...Because of the uniformity of the stamping and the fact that it is a German name I would SPECULATE that this was a private purchase firearm by a German soldier, possibly an officer... but that is all specualtion.
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can anybody speculate on when it was made?
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Looks like a 1914 Commercial. Kind of a scarce gun. (Reporting from a fairly sunny day in Whitehorse, Canada!:))
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care to elaborate on the scarce part?
entrance fee was $600. |
Obviously I'm not traveling with my reference library, but there weren't very many1913/1914 commercial models produced (something to do with a little skirmish in Europe at that time). Someone else will have to look up the estimated production figures.
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Brian,
It may be possible to date the manufacture of your Luger within a couple of years. Please refer to these discussions: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ght=frame+spur http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ght=frame+spur http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...0667#post30667 and report whether your Luger has a straight or spurred recoil spring well; a reinforced or unreinforced frame; and an unrelieved or relieved sear bar. Your observations will help narrow down the time frame. --Dwight |
Brian,
Just a bit of info on the name "M. Huebsch"...the 1914 Rangliste shows only a Reservist Lt Schmitz-Huebsch (44 Fld Arty Regt) in the Imperial Army of 1914. The German Graves Registration has twelve men named M.Huebsch none of whom were officers. The Offizier Ehrenliste 1914-1918 does list one officer named Huebsch. He was an Oblt. (First Lieutenant) in Infantry Regiment 87. He may be your man. I have a 1914 commercial like yours that is serial numbered 73982 and marked on the front grip strap with the name"NEUFVILLE". I believe that both pistols were probably made in 1914-1915. |
very interesting, thank you.
was this man kia? or is there no information reguarding that? |
He survived WWI.
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Brian, Your reblued frame appears to have been renumbered to match the 1914 Commerical upper, so I would classify as a mismatched shooter. TH
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what about it makes you think that?
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Brian,
It would be useful to know the serial numbers stamped on the bottom edges of the takedown lever and sideplate, and the number on the trigger (under the sideplate). Also the information I mentioned previously. --Dwight |
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here's the spur.
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back of the frame.
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don't know what the sear bar is.
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here are the capture paper...s
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The name engraved on the backstrap has no"e" in it. It would not likely be any of the individuals mentioned below.
Brian, Just a bit of info on the name "M. Huebsch"...the 1914 Rangliste shows only a Reservist Lt Schmitz-Huebsch (44 Fld Arty Regt) in the Imperial Army of 1914. The German Graves Registration has twelve men named M.Huebsch none of whom were officers. The Offizier Ehrenliste 1914-1918 does list one officer named Huebsch. He was an Oblt. (First Lieutenant) in Infantry Regiment 87. He may be your man. I have a 1914 commercial like yours that is serial numbered 73982 and marked on the front grip strap with the name"NEUFVILLE". I believe that both pistols were probably made in 1914-1915. |
Brian, "ue" is the anglicized substitute for the German umlaut so you can consider the spelling the same.
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Brian,
Thanks for the extra pics. The flat recoil spring well was instituted late in 1914, somewhere between sn 70632 and sn 72353. All of the reports of 1914 Commercials in this range up to sn 71182 are Commercial Armys, that is, commercial 5-digit serial numbered, but military proofed and accepted. The lazy c/N commercial proof indicates that the gun was proofed (by my estimation) before 1916 when the proof was stamped vertically and designates the 20DWM variation. Commercial production was very limited during The Great War. The range of flat-well 1914 Commercial production in the Commercial database extends from sn 72353 (and possibly as early as sn 71504) to the final entry (intermixed with 20DWM and relieved-sear 1914 (1916) Commercial variations) of sn 76071. Examination of this range in the Commercial database suggests this gun was most likely made in 1915, possibly early 1916. The maximum extension of the range of flat-well 1914 Commercials extends from approximately sn 71500 to sn 76071. Therefore, the maximum number of these pistols made is approximately 4,571 examples. There are only 100 serial number reports in this range; slightly more than half of them are 1914 Commercial, interspersed with 1914 Commercial Armys, 1914 Commercial Navys, 20DWMs, and possibly a couple of "1913 Commercials". It would be unwarrented to establish a production number based on the statistical average, but it seems reasonable to estimate from the pattern of reports that production of these guns may range from 2,000 to 3,000 units, pending reports of more data. Although the frame has been ground back shorter than the front of the receiver, indicating the possible removal and replacement of a serial number, my own suspicion is that this is the original frame assembled with this gun. The matching serial numbers of the small frame parts tend to support this, as does the observation that Luger frames ground back farther than the receiver are much more common than is usually expected. It is my own speculation that Commercial Lugers manufactured during the war were made up almost entirely of parts rejected during military contract production. This would be one possible way to account for the frame/receiver length mismatch. --Dwight |
...oops, double post...
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wow, out standing, thank you.
so it would appear that it is a bit of a rare bird....i thought it was just a shooter when i purchased it. as much as i dislike these questions, i'm going to do it. what would a realistic value be on something like this? |
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The range of flat-well 1914 Commercial production in the Commercial database extends from sn 72353 (and possibly as early as sn 71504) to the final entry (intermixed with 20DWM and relieved-sear 1914 (1916) Commercial variations) of sn 76071. Examination of this range in the Commercial database suggests this gun was most likely made in 1915, possibly early 1916.
flat-well Dwight, can please explain what is a flat-well. thanks Alf:) |
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Thank You Dwight.:cheers:
Alf |
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