Important Luger Auction Soon!
 

October 6 & 7, 2008 ( guess that's not all that soon!) This might be old news to you hardcore collectors. There will be a large mulit type firearm auction on the above dates, including the "Renowned Doug Smith Collection of Lugers" as the flyer says. Including the "rare" Cased Presentation Luger Carbine to Hugo Borchardt from Georg Luger! How many you guys going to bid on this one? What will this baby sell for? $20K or maybe more! Alot more! Auction to be held by James D. Julia Inc. out of Fairfield, Maine. web www.juliaauctions.com For blackpowder revolver fans, the auction will also include the finest known Colt Walker revolver "A Company 210" From what I have seen of original Colt Walkers, this one must go for $50k+ Just thought this might be of intrest to the forum. GET YOU BIDS IN SOON FOR THAT CASED CARBINE!! What you guys think this prize will actully sell for?

Bill

I would estimate $80-100,000 dollars in spite of the velvet edges of case recesses showing no apparent wear after 90-100 years. The gun is the important thing. Dick McE.

Bill, where have you been? Well documented presentation lugers such as the Hugo Borchardt carbine is expected to go for "over $100K" and who knows if the bidding becomes frantic. The Walker Colt (probably the finest in existance) is expected to fetch in the neighborhood of $1000K!! Yes that is is one million dollars! This has been told to me by experienced long time Colt collectors. This Colt has documentation back to the Texas Rangers.

Hopefully, they would also carry a few much cheaper ones :) Just login to the site, no online catalog yet.

A person coming from Mars has this question: who is Walker Colt? Thanks.

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Never mind. Found it in wiki. hmmm.....

I have seen only a fraction of Doug's vast and superb collection-the man had to buy a defunct bank to get a vault bbig enough to house it-but I can assure you that this auction will provide access to some of the finest conditioned rare guns in the world. Get a second mortage, boys, because these opportunities are truly once in a lifetime.

Tom A

Not for us mere mortals ! I could never justify spending more than the value of a house on a firearm . Those who buy these things will probably never see them anyhow -- they will spend all their time locked up in vaults.

Some of them probably belong in museums so we can all enjoy them .

----with the proviso that the curator label the exhibit with appropriate information unlike the ambiguous Flintlock described in the Off Topic section. Unfortunately many will never see daylight, residing in vaults like garaged Bugatti's, Ferrari GTO's,etc. at the urging of their insurance carrier. Best regards, Dick

And to whet your appetite for that one is Rock Island's auction Sept 6,7,8 with lots of Lugers, Broomhandles, P38's, Colts, Winchester's and many, many more!:rolleyes:

If I remember correctly, the Hugo Borchardt presentation carbine was sold in the Butterfield auction in the mid 1990's and it had fetched between $55k-$63k which was considered a low price for such a marvellous item. In those days, a cased presentation carbine was valued between $80k-$100k. A possible explanation for the low result could have been the suspicion or nervousness that collectors had with this Luger carbine being a presentation from Georg Luger to Hugo Borchardt who had sour feelings against each other.

If this 'GL' presentation carbine was not a presentation/gift from Georg Luger to Hugo Borchardt, are the initials for somebody else, or could it have been a gift from Loewe to Borchardt who was the CEO of DWM?

A question I have always had in my mind is: are the initials 'GL' for Georg Luger or a member of the Loewe family who worked in the DWM factory? Was Georg Luger authorized as a sales manager/director to add his initials on a Luger pistol, and why did 'GL' Lugers 'disappear' after 1910 while he continued to work in the DWM factory until 1918 or so?

It will be interesting to observe the hammer price for this carbine plus many more items from the Doug Smith collection.

Albert

For what it's worth, founder Ludwig Loewe {1837-86}had a son named George. Whether he had a position at DWM is unknown. For additional family details see 'Isidor Loewe' @ Google search under Claims Resolution Tribunal. A different 'GL'?? Interesting,----very interesting. Should be pursued further. Dick McE.

Thank you Dick for the information regarding Ludwig, Isidor and George Loewe. After readings some articles on the Internet, I understand that Isidor (ludwig's brother) took over management of the company after Ludwig died in 1886, however, Ludwig's son George also worked in the DWM factory in upper management and, therefore, it is possible that the 'GL' hallmark on test and presentation Lugers is George's initials and not necessarily Georg Luger.

I was also informed by a prominent Luger collector that there was communication and business talks between H. Tauscher and George Loewe, and I believe that George Loewe played an important role in the DWM factory including the approval of test and presentation Lugers.

Albert

Another interesting coincidence is Isidor, (1848-1910) died the same year the 'GL' marked Lugers ceased as mentioned in your earlier thread. " The game's afoot !" as Sherlock Holmes said. Like many historically oriented collectors , I would 'sell my grandmother' to read those long gone DWM archives ! Good hunting, Albert. Best regards, Dick McE.

As a footnote, I would suggest comparing the 'GL' monogram on this carbine with other well documented presentation guns. Ego's being what they are, I would expect a George Loewe 'GL' to differ from Georg Luger's. Unfortunately the Julia presentation didn't include this view. Perhaps if you and I chip in about $60 K each we can find out. Game?! Cheers, Dick

See it. The best 6-shot Mauser that I've ever seen!! Probably not the best that Albert has seen, but the best that I've seen so far. Whew. This thing must cost 'mortgage':(

There exists correspondence from DWM to A. F. Stoeger in the form of a telegram dated between Feb-March 1922 showing that George Loewe and Max Kosegarten were directors at the DWM factory. I am curious to find out when George Loewe was born and when he joined DWM management. I have a second belief that the 'GL' hallmark on presentation and test Lugers is that of George Loewe and not necessarily Georg Luger even though Georg had some movement in the DWM factory. It is possible that an inventor working in a factory would not be authorized to hand out presentation pistols to any person he so wishes. I suppose that these pistols had to be approved from a person at a higher level of management.

It is known that Georg Luger and Hugo Borchardt had a strained relationship in the DWM factory, so why would Georg present a special carbine to a person who disliked him? Instead it is likely that the presentation carbine was given by George Loewe to Hugo and hallmarked with his initials 'GL'. I notice that the plack on the case only has a 'B' character, and if the the chamber happens to have the initials 'HB', who is to say that it is Hugo Borchardt when there is no documentary proof?

Alvin, to my surprise, the 6-Shot Cone Hammer was purchased from a collector in Argentina in the past year. I reckon that it may fetch around the figure of $16k-$17k. Many years ago, I remember a similar 6-Shot fetching around $25k, but the market today with Broomhandles is unpredictable. I notice that the Standard 10-Shot Cone Hammers are more in demand even though the 6-Shot is a rarer model.

Albert

Albert -- Thanks for the info. What's your estimation of value on that vL&D slabside?

Alvin - Based on the image, the VL&D Flatside appears in very good condition. It is harder to find a Flatside in very condition as compared to a Cone Hammer in the same condition.

I reckon that the Flatside will fetch between $8-$10k assuming that the stock is matching to the pistol.

Cheers,
Albert

Albert,

I have photos of this Carbine when it first turned up. It only has a "B" in gold over the chamber with a pattern around it. As far as I know there was no documentation as to the owner at that time. But that may have chaged by now.

Regards,
Mike Jones

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the information regarding the gold initial on the chamber of the presentation carbine. When this carbine was auctioned by Butterfield in the mid-1990's, I do not know what made the seller or the auction house believe that it was a presentation to Hugo Borchardt. I doubt that it was a presentation to him, instead it was possibly a special order by a wealthy individual of a big American company through Hans Tauscher during the early 1900's. For example, the 'GL' presentation carbine serial #9112C with the chamber marking 'HCR - 1903' was a gift from R. J. Reynolds (tobacco company) to his chief financial officer Henry Caldwell Roan. I have had the opportunity to examine this carbine in my hands which has better wood and a higher polished finished than compared to a standard Luger carbine.

Albert

Albert,

When Lee Ingalls offer this gun sn 9106C in 1981. He said information was forthcoming that the gun belonged to Hugo Borchardt. That is more then likely how this got started. But who knows maybe he did get the documentation.

I do agree with the with the special order like you stated.

I also have handled the HCR Gun and all of these Carbines I have seen in this series do have outstanding finish.

Regards,
Mike

A few guns did not sell. Now they are open for making offers. That 6-shot did not sell either. It's supposed to be a reworked gun.

I heard a lot of guns did not sell, but I have not seen the results...

Right now, cash is king. It's looking a little scary.

Getting back on the 'George Loewe' link.
I've seen a lot of DWM and Loewe related documentation and never saw that name pop up.

Any info about verifiable sources that mention 'George Loewe' and his links with the Loewe/DWM company?

Borchardt was never CEO of DWM, by the way. Just an engineer employed by them. His main focus was the 'ball bearing' part of the company.

Ah, I found the text referenced to and I can see where the mix-up originated from. The CLAIMS RESOLUTION TRIBUNAL, re Holocaust Victim Assets Litigation Case No. CV96-4849, mentions a George Loewe being the son of Ludwig Loewe. The description, when read incorrectly, suggests that Georg Loewe took over, but in fact, it was Isidor.

Ludwig Loewe founded the Loewe company, but his brother Isidor took over when Ludwig died in 1886. Isidor Loewe and his second in command, Eduard Barthelmes led the company from that moment on. Barthelmes was responsible for the technical management of the company and daughter companies. The tooling business became the responsibility of Julius Pajeken in 1888. Barthelmes remained responsible for the weapons production part.

Pajeken died in 1902 and his successor was Dr. Jur. Walther Waldschmidt. So from 1902 onwards, Waldschmidt was responsible for the arms branch in general. DWM sales documentation from 1904 shows the names of Alexis Riese and Max Kosegarten. It is thought that Riese was responsible for daily management of DWM and that Kosegarten was responsible for the commercial part.

Isidor Loewe died in 1910.

Members of the board of Loewe from 1893 until 1929:
Isidor Loewe, 1893 - 1910
Theodor Koehn, 1893 - 1897
Alexis Riese, 1895 - 1897 (went to DWM)
Julius Pajeken, 1897 - 1902
Wilhelm Laue, 1896 - 1899
Walther Waldschmidt, 1904 - 1924
Oskar Oliven, 1904 - 1906 and 1910 - 1929 (he was a son in law of Isidor and took over Isidor's seat after Isidor died in 1910).
Ernst Huhn, 1922 - 1926
Erich Loewe, 1925 - 1929
Heinrich Moering, 1926 - 1929

Again no mention of Georg or George Loewe anywhere in the company histories (the earliest one I have access to was published in 1929).

It's safe to say that the 'GL' hallmark was not that of Georg(e) Loewe and that Georg(e) Loewe played no important role in the companies of Ludw. Loewe & Cie. and DWM.

There is no more doubt in my mind that a 'Georg(e) Loewe' existed in the old days, but it's also relatively clear that the offspring of Ludwig Loewe played no important role in the company that bears his name.

Paul von Gontard entered the advisory board of Loewe in 1911, this most probably correlates to the time he entered the management of DWM.

So in short:
Loewe:
Ludwig Loewe, founder and CEO until 1886.
Isidor Loewe, CEO from 1886 until 1910.
Oskar Oliven, CEO from 1910 until 1929.

DWM/BKIW:
Alexis Riese, CEO from 1897 until 1911.
Paul von Gontard, CEO from 1897 until 1928.
Gunther Quandt, CEO from 1928 until his death in 1954.
Harald Quandt, CEO from 1954 until his death in 1967.

I would love to see a copy of the Stoeger documentation mentioned by Albert.