My Friend, Doug Smith
 

While talking with Doug today he mentioned has was putting a few of his personal collection pieces up with Julia Auctions.

Tonight for the heck of it I googled Julia auctions, firearms division, selected highlights. Now get ready cause IT'LL BLOW YOUR SOCKS OFF!!!

Every Luger collector has to see these.........after looking I'm breathless and my heart is racing!

I hope Doug does'nt mind me mentioning this. But what a treat to see this!!

I think it a great honor to call Doug my friend.

Jesse :)

I hope Doug is feeling okay, because he has his own on-line gun shop


http://www.juliaauctions.com/auction...highlights.asp




Ed

Pretty wild stuff...What the heck is a Hitler guard Luger and what is the device for?

Jerry Burney

The Hitler body guard pistol is a pre 1933 job with a flashlight that can be mounted under the barrel. The light is activated by the pressure of the hand on the grip. Just the holster for this pistol deserves a place of its own in a museum.

ahhh, the one we saw at Chattanooga, really interesting and cool thing.



Ed

George, I would love to get a good look at this holster...Is there any documentation I could find? Book photo's? Anything anywhere?

I doubt Julia Auction would send me any..

Thanks for the info! Very interesting....

How is the holster different? Is there a cutout for the light device? That's why the flap for a closure?

Thanks for any help in advance..

Jerry Burney

I think our friend in El Paso made some photos.

Im like Jerry here, never even heard of a hitler guard luger. Nor ever seen reference to one. is there any information on these anywhere. Its sure the first I ever heard of one. And i've been collecting some 45 years. Extremally interesting piece would sure love to know more about them. Jerry I had no idea what the devise was either. Was afarid to ask.

I wonder if the computer geeks here can preserve those pages for posterity , they are a very worthwhile reference. remarkable top end collection , must be worth millions . way out of my league.

I think I will order that catalog and see what is in the collection, downloading what I feel interests me.

Dougs personal stuff is always way over my financial means ;)

Richie, Fear is a disabler! As a student I am free to ask whaterver I want... when you become an expert you lose that freedom!

George, Thanks! I will Email Ron and see if he has any.

Jerry Burney

I don't recall off the top of my head all the details of the provenance of this pistol but Doug did relay it to me in detail a couple of years ago when I saw this Luger while visiting with Doug.
There is apparently reference in some historical work to two of Hitler's personal (NSDAP) body guards who were armed with light equipped pistols. This was during the years prior to his election as Chancellor in 1933.
The holster is as fascinating as the pistol. As I recall it is Akah made and it is a breakaway.

I have found two photos of the pistol and Akah holster that another forum member made last year. I will forward them to Ed for posting here.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bodyguard1b.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bodyguard2b.jpg

Hmm, someone who designed this contraption surely must have patented it. I wonder if there's any trace of such a patent in the German patent archives.

Does anyone know if the kit has a DRGM or DRP number on it?

A good thought Gerben, but if this was a special unit item and only a prototype number were created, it may not have bothered with the patent process... Let us know what you find out please.

I examined the pistol and holster in Chattanooga last year. There was an Akva makers mark on the holster and standard P-08 proofs on the gun. I don't recall any markings on the added light and battery ensemble.

Tom A

Seems odd that it has a grip safety and stock lug... 1913 commercial or Navy frame? Does anybody know the serial #? What's on the toggle? Is it dated?
Mike C.

I bought a book off of ebay, specially for two chapters, one was useless the other fairly good. One chapter; Hitlers Personal Security by Peter Hoffman had this information (background, this was on Hitlers personal bodyguards, and what they carried);

Funny thing...It does not appear that the lighting apparatus, attached to the pistol, can be holstered together. There is no room in the holster with the unit attached.

This supposition leads to the question..Where or how was the lighting unit carried?

Which leads to another question..Since the light cannot be holstered with the pistol, why was the holster made with these unusual changes such as the side flap?

Another question I have about this very unusual setup...The lighting unit does not seem to connect to the brass plates or rod that is affixed to the pistol & grips. What are these? They must have something to do with the light....


Jerry Burney

Jerry,

Very good observations and some of the same questions I had when I examined it at Chattanooga. After some consideration, I came to the conclusion that the cutout on the holster allowed for the side additions to the Luger to accommodate the external cable connection to a battery pack that is not currently with the pistol. The lighting unit is cleverly designed to be a quick-disconnect from the Luger. Once the pistol is drawn from the holster, the lighting unit can be attached and the umbilical cable to the external battery pack can be plugged in. It isnâ??t a â??quick drawâ?� rig and takes a few seconds to set up.

The whole grip arrangement is really a bit complex, and as far as I could determine, the exterior brass plates constituted a device to complete the illumination circuit by skin conduction. Most of the connections are on the inside of the grips and not visible from the views shown. Iâ??ll never know for sure, but from the layout of the plates and internal connections it looked that way to me. If you didnâ??t have sweaty palms it might not work, but if you were in a situation that required their use, I know my palms would be a bit damp! (OK, Iâ??m a wimp!).

I took the pics that George posted, but unfortunately, those are the only two I have. Bob Benson took numerous photos of the grips and internal setup, but I didnâ??t want to muscle in on his shoot. I wish now that I hadâ?¦I will never have another opportunity.

I would love to see pictures/description on how the electric circuit is done!

Today this is easily achieved with the use of a MOSFET (or simular) switch, or a more fancy solution where the hands capacitance lags an electric pulse enough to trigger the switch.

But how this was done in the 30's, is interesting.. Wikipedia tells me;
'In 1934 German physicist Dr. Oskar Heil patented another field-effect transistor. There is no direct evidence that these devices were built....'
The mass produced bipolar junction transistor didn't come until a while after the war. So if that thingy has some sort of transistor in it, that would VERY interesting! But highly unlikely if it's from the 30's..

There are ways to make this sort of connection without the use of transistors or 'chips', but as an electric power-engineer (I'm not that much into electronic's), I just can't see a good reliable way to do it. I will give it some more thought when I find the time to do so.. perhaps they had some metal threads in their gloves that made a sufficient connection without the use of switches, but gloves would be kinda silly with a Luger..
Thoughts would be appreciated :)


Interesting piece!

Ron Unfortunately It was not me that took the pictures of this very interesting pistol. Perhaps the person that did will be so kind as to post them here. Bob Benson

Sorry Bob, my memory isn't always as sharp as I would like it to be. I wish it had been you!

The more I think of it.. the more I lean towards that this is impossible with 1933 technology.
Sorry to say.

they had metal flashlights since the early 1900's and my look at it, made it appear to be just a nice flashlite attachment. (unless I am mistaken in the uniqueness of this, inwas told it was a flashlite attachment)

I thought I might get at least one comment on my finding of what his personal bodyguards were equiped with. Maybe now my posts are invisible, because the other day, they said thanks to Pete and ignored my posting. Makes ya want to quit throwing in comments ;)


Ed

Ed:
They didn't have the 'switches' needed in the circuit to make it work, just can't run 6 volts or so trough the skin and light up the flashlight.
I'm not saying it's a fake, can't tell that much from just a couple of pictures.

Btw. your findings where very interesting! They sure carried a lot of ammunition, wonder what name was on the last bullet..

Ed, Thanks! I found your artical to be very interesting reading. In direct relation to this subject.

A fascinating setup for sure. I cannot help but think the brass plates and rod on the grips have some function for the light but like Morgan says...It couldn't transfer that much electrical.
I would like to see the insides.

Jerry Burney

Info can be found in Peter Hoffman's book Hitler's Personal Security with reference to lighted pistols used in the security of Adolph Hitler.

Page 120
Page 165
Page 238

Jim Cate, author of volumes I & II of J.P. SAUER & SOHN, SUHL- WAFFENSTADT.

Welcome to the Lugerforum Ken...

My guess is that the grip safety completed a curcuit when compressed. Why add a grip safety to a gun that is already very complex. The early Navies were the only models with a grip safety used by the German military... other than this one.
Mike C.

Given the two criterias;
1. the shooters hand connects a circuit between the two brass plates and turns the light on.
2. the configuration is of pre 1933 origin.

=> it's plausible, but unfortunately I find it unlikely

-Until the 1940s they only had relay's. They could detect as little as 30uA and in theory do the trix. But then they would need many turns and a VERY low tension spring, it would be fragile for the beating during recoil and it had to be made very small.
-From the 1940s until 1960s they could solve it with miniature vacuum tubes. A difficult difficult solution to an easy problem..
-From the 1960 they could use both MOSFET (or simular) and transistors. They would take the recoil beating and be a good reliable solution.
-From the 1970s they could also be detecting the hands capacitance by using a puls generator. This would be the most reliable solution.. one tiny 1.5V watch-battery could detect and switch on the light for about 5 years without being replaced, neat stuff.

As Mike pointed out.. I also believe the grip safety would be the way to go.

Perhaps the brass plates is simply misleading. A few of pictures is really not enough to say anything on how it's made. So i'm not judging the Luger as real or fake, and I'm sure not judging the owner/seller.
It just brought out the curiosity in me, trying to find a way it could be done the way it looks like it's made.
A fascinating Luger it is regardless! As well as the other Lugers on the site refereed to


it's just my two �¸re.