Gunbroker item # 96185518
 

Can one of you specialists give me an opinion on the above?
Thanks.

Odelric,

First of all, welcome to the forum.

The gun looks like the genuine article to me... but I place no credence in the hearsay story that accompanies it... it is just a story without any provenance.

I can tell you that at least one of the bidders is considered to be an authority on LP-08's... $4500 is a lot for any person to bid if they didn't believe the item to be genuine.

This rig has many pluses and some things that I don't like.

I don't like the 9 in the grips or the fact that they are un numbered. I am not saying either of these things are incorrect, I just don't like them.
The muzzle of the weapon has a great deal of corrosion. Might be from corrosive ammo and I would want to look at the bore.
I don't like the Crown S cartouche in the stock. Not saying it's not right..I don't like the way it looks.

There are also many things that are right. Nothin's perfect I guess.
Jerry Burney

Jerry -- Any comments on the holster and the pouch? The gun looks good, but I am not sure about the accessories. Thanks.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=96185518

I apologize in advance for another post about details, I know it bothers some members, I hesitate to even comment.

I have some questions:
I have not been able to find a 1917 date that looks like the one on this gun, can someone provide another example that shows the 7 so far elevated?

The proofs look strange to me, is it normal for some proofs to be worn and others to look so fresh? Honestly, some of them look cut to me.

There is a remnant of a proof to the far right, why is that there?

Vern

Vern,some of the members here are very detail oriented. The 1917 photo might be distorted due to the photo angle and the fact that the chamber on which it is stamped is curved.
All of the acceptance proofs you speak about are stamped in seperate operations . When the pistol passes it is proofed. This takes place 4 different times. Each strike is made on it's own so a variable amount of force would be normal.
I am assuming you are talking about the barrel proof?

The leather on this Artillery rig is simply amazing. Take a very close look at the stock boot and it's keeper strap. I have never seen a better one.

The Very Rare carry strap is also worth looking at. These were always the first thing to go on one of these rigs. This one is a very nice example.

Not to mention the Double magazine pouch...what a color! Condition and markings to die for. What I would give to cherry pick this rig over!

The holster itself it also very respectable. Again, some things I like about it...No LOVE about it. Some things I really don't like.

It might go for a ton of money.....we will see.
Jerry Burney

Without giving any comments about the LP-08 rig, I shall say the the magazine pouch is in excellent condition. If I could 'cherry pick' this set, I would grab the magazine pouch in a heart beat. As Jerry mentioned, straps are difficult to find because they were the first object to break, and this strap is in very good condition.

Albert

Odelric,
welcome to this prestigious club. You already have had few of the best minds in Lugers comment on this article and I am afraid to add anything to what they already have said because I respect them so very much. But first of all, I would like to compliment the seller of this 1917 artillery rig on his fine photography both in quality and quantity. He really told the story in the pictures that he took. Overall, I would have to say that this is one of the finer transitional 1917 artillery rigs that I have seen. There might be better ones out there, but this one is definately not chopped liver. That is probably why there have been over seven hundred viewers of the sale and still counting.

I think that I might have to say at this point that I have absolutely no connection to this seller and have never handled this gun in any way. With that done, I would like to compliment the seller on his photography, both in quality and in quantity.

There are only two things that I would like to comment on here and they are the proof mark on the stock and the 9's on the grips. I looked at the 6-7 stocks that I have and none of them have the proof mark that is on this stock. It might not be wrong, but I will have to go through my 'World of Lugers' by Constanzo to see if I can find it. So put a question mark there for me.

The 9's on the grips are another question mark. I have seen a number of 9's on grips before and many of those marks are of questionable origin. The size and style of these grips 9's leave me doubtful. There have been many comments on this forum over the years about sellers creating branding irons for burning 9's on the grips and this might (?) be another example.

John Sabatos comment on the price is true. The price seems to be high. But I have seen worse rigs with fewer accessories going for this price and that was a few years ago. The mags are original but unmatched. If they matched, then the price would be higher.

The straps and the stock cup are things that are hard to find. I have gone to gun shows and have bought just those things to put on my holsters and they cost plenty. I have seen minty artillery holsters without the straps and the cup on tables offered for almost as much as for the gun itself. The only thing that bugs me about holsters like the one being sold here is that the makers marks are on the inside of the holster, in the rough. Eventually, the marks will wear off.

Since I already have a 1917 rig, I am going to pass on this one. But I am going to watch the sale on this particular one and enjoy watching everyone going nuts trying to buy it. Thats one of the pleasures of being a collector.
Big Norm

I have been pretty critical of this gun, but may have been wrong; there is a parallel conversation on the other forum. The other collectors have helped me see the light.
Good luck to the buyer

Vern

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15186

I've been following the posts on both forums on this "museum" piece with a lot of interest. It's interesting to read what members/users (with different collecting knowledge/experience) have to write about the validity of this rig. IMHO I think it's a good thing to question the validity of every Luger (or any firearm for that matter) that's presented for sale. Let's face it, with today's technology (Internet) there are more unscrupulous characters out there eager to "pull the wool" over the ignorant buyer's eyes to reap the financial windfall of an appreciating commodity and the Internet makes it easier. In our exhuberant quest to expose these "snake oil" salespeople we can not lose sight that there are still good/correct items out there. No firearm is ever perfect. That being said...

I believe there are more things right than questionable on this rig. For those looking for LP.08 rig, I think this one is worth getting a physical inspection period. To the buyer, once you receive it for inspection, have a knowledgable collector or two look it over. It's always good to have "fresh/unbias" eyes/noses to inspect.

Good Collecting!

Joe Pirolo

As mentioned above, this gun deserves hand-on inspection and consultation. There are three types of guns, type 1, obviously wrong, we can save the shipping cost; type 2, gray guns, nothing wrong from the pictures, worth hand-on checking; type 3, a proper subset of type 2, are classified as originals.

Just followed the link and read the posts in Jan's forum. Be honest, I have not found anything wrong with it yet.

=====

P.S. Pete & Vlim raised good points there. I feel the inspector marks and proof on this gun are not only correct, they can be used as a reference to judge other 1917, IMO. Looks like light rust was removed from the rear sight leaf of Vlim's gun in the past.

Hi Alvin,

I agree with you that the sight on my guns shows some traces of wear, but I think the wear that is visible on the rear sight leaf is mainly the result of holster wear. It's the highest point on the gun and since it has been with a holster for some 90 years before it came into possession of a collector friend of mine (and later in my hands), like the blue on the side plate of a P08, this area will show the first signs of wear after being handled in combination with a holster relatively quickly. Similar wear is visible on the left side of the muzzle on an honest LP08.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/sight_detail.jpg

Basically, an LP08 with a minty rear sight, no holster wear on the left side of the muzzle area, no holster wear on the side plate area and most importantly blued over inspector markings on the receiver, should raise some serious questions, as this all points to a reblue scenario.

With rigs like the one shown, there's always the question whether it was put together or not. But if you view the one on auction for it's individual components alone and take the possibility into account that gun/stock and holster/rig started their lives separated, it's still a pretty amazing period correct WW1 LP08 rig, with a nice screwdriver as a bonus :)

But after I checked the holster that came with my LP08 I was presently surprised to find the same maker and production year (1915) stamped on the same location on the inside of the holster flap. Also, the crown/S cartouche on my holster stock looks pretty similar to this one. So basically we have two LP08's, both from 1917, both from the 1000f - 2000f series, with similar details, similar inspector markings, similar holsters with similar maker's markings. It fuels my believe that this one is as right as rain (although one can discuss the '9' markings, and even the grips, as they look like later beech wood grips) and that there is a very, very good chance that LP08 and holster started out together. I certainly wouldn't let this one pass because of the grips, though.

As an extra for those who missed the other discussion, this is a detail photo of an inspector's stamp and the firing proof on a 1917 LP08. It clearly shows the inspector's stamp was applied after blueing, the halo that resulted and even some shallow rust in and around the stamp (which is only visible under magnification with an intense light source). The firing proof was stamped before blueing and blued over. Also note the sharpness of the edges of the inspector's stamp and the texture of the metal.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/detail_stamp2.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/detail_stamp3.jpg

This is the side by side comparison of the sight leaves of the LP08 on auction and my 1917 LP08 (both are about 700 guns apart).

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/sidebyside.jpg

God, how I admire people who know how to use a camera. Nice work van Vlimmeren!

I also want to take the opportunity to thank all the people who participated in this conversation. Its a shinning example of what is good about the internet and this forum.

Now lets get back to watching this auction. In my heart, I have to agree with someone above who said that they would love to cherry pick the holster from the gun. As a purist collector, I hope that the buyer has an equally nice 1915 Artillery Luger to match this holster up with.

This rig is currently at $4725 with a couple of days left to run. The fun of the closing bids is about to begin.
Big Norm

Hey Norm, You need to spend some time trying to use your camera with the cork in your bottle and your glass empty :D and reading the instruction book. Digital photos don't cost any money... if you get bad ones you just erase them and start over...until you get some that are acceptable.

Anyone who has the courage and the brain power to select the kind of guns that you collect can master something as simple as a digital camera and marry the results to his computer...

We would LOVE to see photos of the guns you have been only talking about for the last several years. I can't wait for your photo essay on the Tople Collection!

Norm,

Thanks for the compliment, but I basically just cheated :)

I've had the discussion with several collectors, also in the ammunition collecting world, as well. I saw people invest quite a bit of money in stands, cameras, rigs, ring flashers, etc.. in order to get high quality, high detail, photographs.

Since I don't have the patience for that, I simply fling the stuff on a cheap 80$ HP flatbed scanner instead. :)

The tool used in this case was a HP Scanjet 3800 which I bought for scanning a number of old dia-film slides (it has a provision for those in the lid). Basically there are 2 types of scanners, the optical scanners and the ledscanners. An optical scanner can not only scan flat documents, but also 3d objects.

Using the scanner has a disadvantage, it's nice for very up and close shots and not good for anything more elaborate. Also the funny lighting plays tricks on you some times.

I just finished doing some scans of old hallmarks on silverware and it really helps to blow up those 3-4mm hallmarks to a size you can actually see without a headache.

Hey John :bigbye:

I have a ton of normal, old fashioned pictures that I have been trying to put into my Macintosh computer. But I am too stupid to understand the instructions on my HP-1600 scanner/printer. Someday I will open up that box that contains my Cannon, 6 mega pixel camera that I bought a year ago last Christmas. Then I will install the Printshop software that I bought at the same time. Then I will get married and order my wife to learn how to use it. :p In the meantime, you will just have to be content with my big mouth. :D

I also have a hundred or so books that I want to transfer from audio tape to CD. Many of them histories of WW1 and very interesting. But I ain't got no time to do that project either. The only reason that I am here on the forum now is because its a great excuse to not do my income tax. :rolleyes: I'm afraid that the IRS is going to have another Ruby Ridge or Waco incident if I don't get off of my lazy butt pretty soon. :eek: Times a running out on me and April 15th is rapidly approaching. :biggulp: Gotta go.
Big Norm

OK fellow Lugerheads, the auction is over and the selling price was $9300 plus change , including shipping. I hope that the buyer is a member of this forum and will comment on his/her purchase. I am shocked but not surprised. I expected it to go over $5000 but didn't think it would go for nearly ten grand. I thought that the grips and the mismatched mags would hold the price down. I sure enjoyed watching the auction action tough.
Big Norm

Must say it sure was an interesting auction. And I beleive the RIG worth every dime of the selling price. Don't think we will see another like it.

Gunman,
someday, when I am old and cantankerous, I will put one of my favorite artilleries on the web. Its an Erfurt with everything matching (including grips, stock and mag) and I have a wide selection of holsters with straps and cups to select from. I even beat Ralph Shattuck by a few steps at a gun show to get it too. (yuk, yuk) I think that he bought the holster first and then came back for the gun. (Too late Ralphy baby. You snooze, you lose) But right now, I wouldn't part with it for anything. Maybe when I get to that stage in my life I will finally know how to post pictures too. (Gotta beat TomA at that action) In the meantime, I'm having fun watching auctions like this one. I kinda know the feelings and emotions of these bidders in the final stages of the auction from past bids that I made. I bet that non of them have finger nails today.
Big Norm

Fellas-

I am the high bidder on this artillery rig and must admit that the bidding went higher than I anticipated. I am a frequent (not continuous) reader of this and a couple other forums and I never fail to be impressed by the (sometimes intimidating) level of knowledge of the participants. Based on the mostly favorable comments about this offering on both forums I sensed a lot of interest and felt the bidding would likely be vigorous towards closing and would end up in the 7K to 8K range.

The numerous and detailed photos posted on the auction site and the level of scrutiny (and opinions) given the various components ultimately gave me the additional comfort level to exceed my original budget by a bit. Come to think of it, the seller of this item should send a commission/contribution to the general operating fund of both of these excellent forums for their unintended assistance.

I have been looking off and on for a number of years for a decent artillery rig and have grown tired of being offered expensive "cobbled-together" outfits of dubious pedigree and all with a few "excuses". Although this was a few more dollars than I had planned on parting with, I feel that it was "good money, well spent".

Regards to all, Bill

Bill, Congratulations! You truely scored a good one! I have never laid eyes on a better stock boot assembly. Really very nice. I learned some things too in public and private discussions about your rig. I never stop being a student...This auction with it's good photo's was a good one to study.

Welcome to the Forum, you actually saved yourself some money by buying the best first!

Jerry Burney

Bill,
congratulations. When you receive your trophy I hope your examination of it fully meets your expectations. The last few minutes of the auction must have been nerve wracking for you. The wait to receive your trophy might be even worse.
Big Norm

Congrats Bill... may I request that you communicate with the seller an additional request that his original photos be authorized for permanent display on this forum in the Members Gallery about what an Artillery rig SHOULD be... all current and future Luger enthusiasts will thank you.

Bill,

As one of the competitors for this matchless example, let me offer my sincere congratulations. And, should you ever fall out of love with that piece, I would be willing to pay a substantial premium to purchase it from you.

Tom A.
bidding as Fongdgoy

Bill,

Congratulations for the winning bid on this very nice artillery rig and it was a pleasure to show the comparion between two guns only 700 apart.

Hello Bill,

Congratulations on winning a very fine M1917 LP-08 rig. Do not be surprised by the competition that you received from Tom - he was paid by the seller to jack up the price or he was just becoming damn greedy (just joking)!!

I have read the various comments and also noticed the 'microscopic' details that various members have demonstrated, and I would like to add some comments which might be helpful.

The magazine pouch was usually issued in the same colour as the field belt according to the German Army regulations. In the early years of WWI, the pouches were normally brown color and they became darker to black colour towards the end of the war. It was generally the same change with the holsters of the LP-08 rig which the earlier holsters are in brown and the later ones in black. It appears that the holster on your rig (dated 1915)was previously brown and somebody in the past may have darkened the holster with black polish. It is acceptable to encounter holsters dated 1915 on pistols dated 1917. You are lucky to obtain an original strap in top condition which was the first article to break when carrying the rig.

The pistol is absolutely correct, although a few members may have questioned the carved '9' on the grips. In my opinion, the shape of the '9' does not follow the regulations that were issued for Mauser C96 (Red 9) pistols used during WWI, and I suppose that the '9' markings on this LP-08 rig were carved in the grips after WWI. It is possible that this rig was not used during the war and it may have 'escaped' Germany to another country until it was brought to the US. If the grips are unnumbered, that should not concern you because everything on the pistol remains consistent.

The sight adjustment tool is a modern copy, and there is a discussion on this forum regarding original tools (one of which I have in my collection).

If you wish to eventually build a complete LP-08 rig, you should 'hunt' for a second model TM-08, a loader, a TM-08 canvas carrier and an original manual (all of which I have with my LP-08 rig).

Cheers,
Albert

Albert --

I would agree the "9" was not factory work, but I would assume the "9" on this gun was applied in the field during the War.

1) It's interesting to notice all of those LP08 having "9" grips are 1917. If the "9" was applied after the War, the closure on 1917 is hard to explain.

Here is another 1917 sample: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=95975446

2) According to "Mauser Archive" (Jon Speed, 2007), the first batch of 30,000 9m/m C96 was delivered in 1917. Research shows early 9m/m C96 has either no "9" at all or field "9", and those field "9" varies in size, shape, and location.

Red nine LP08s were branded at the unit level. These grips only appear on 1917 dated LP08's.
Units after receiving the early deliveries of 9mm C96 pistols were instructed to mark the grips with nines due to confusion with the many thousands of 7.63 Mausers already in service. At the same time the C96 directive went out to the units tens of thousands of LP08's were being delivered to infantry units for the first time. Soldiers being soldiers and officers being officers confusion must have struck in some units and LP08s were marked as well

Bill,

Congratulations on a beautiful ( the best I have ever seen) LP.08 rig. You waited years to find it, and now it's yours. It must be a great feeling.

I have to admit that I am envious, but you deserve it for being much more patient than I could have been.


Albert,

I don't think that the holster was polished black. It is dark brown, caused I believe by someone oiling it. Possibly mink oil or some other type of leather treatment. Note the light streak on the boot, as if it was applied with the strap in place.

Ron

Just for my information, I would like to take this opportunity to ask one question. I noticed on this example that the stocks cup had a manufacturers mark and a date. I have looked at a few of my cups and don't see a comparable manufactures mark of them. Are these marks supposed to be on the cup? I've noticed the same thing on magazine pouches. Some have the manufactures marks and date and some don't.
Big Norm

Some have the manufactures marks and date and some don't.
Big Norm
That is correct. Maury & Co. is the only marking I have ever seen on Artillery leathers. I have also seen it on Holsters.
Jerry Burney

Norm, if mag pouches don't have markings they are possibly fake. Like Jerry wrote, Maury&Co is the only known manufacturer to marke boots and overstraps. I have also seen a Maury&Co marked shoulder strap. I think I have four Maury&Co marked boots and also a couple of overstraps. Among those in my collection there are two different versions of the stamp.
I have also seen Maury&Co marked Pickelhauben.

George, I forgot about the beautiful strap marking...Those are rare!

Jerry Burney

Thanks Jerry and George. I strained my eyeballs as much as I could on this cup and I could only barely make out 'effe'. Maybe thats the cities name and not the manufacturers name.
Big Norm

Norm, Offenbach is what's usually there.
Jerry Burney

Hi Bill must add my Congratulations to the growing list. Thats one hell of a RIG you bought . I mysef have a few of these but that's one one the nicest ones I have seen. BiG Norm would love to see that Erfurt must be real sweet on the eyes. These treasures it seems are quickly dissapearing . To own any of these is a real pleasure. " A Thing Of Beauty Is A Joy Forever "

Gunman.
love those Lugers. You took your best shot at it, but things got carried away. My fun guess was $5K and maybe low $6K because of Jerry's admiration of the leather. Boy, was I wrong. Oh well, sometimes its more fun to be good looking than smart.
Big Norm
_________________
I'm naturally blond. This brown wig is just my attempt at artificial intelligence.

Bill,
just as an after thought, don't forget to look at your straps for markings. Maybe you got something not mentioned by the seller. Namely, the manufactures marking that Jerry mentioned. Maybe you got real lucky.
Big Norm