1906 DWM factory presentation
 

Serial 27642
This gun has the initials HCP or CHP *factory engraved* over the chamber.
"P"is largest.
Absolutely NO evidence of refinishing, and the gun is in 99% condition.
DWM on toggle, serial under barrel and on front of lower frame.
Commercial serializing of small parts.
NO firing proofs at *all*.
I am curious who the recipient may have been.
Wild speculation has suggested Hugo Panzer Co.?
Somehow I don't think that is correct.
Ideas?

Came in a black lacquer case, (more modern production), with take down tool, (not original, has E/ *something*3), pin punch, and cleaning rod and spare mag.

Mag in gun is mint unmarked wood bottom.
Spare is wood bottomed marked in script "Cal 9mm".

Talk to me about this gun.
It is perfect condition, but I need to know who the lucky recipient *might* have been, please.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1_copy28.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/2_copy14.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/3_copy10.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/4_copy5.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/6_copy8.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/17_copy5.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/19_copy5.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/22_copy3.jpg

Anna,

"No proofs" would be proper for a gun exported to the US. Is it GERMANY marked on the front of the frame?

'Fraid I draw a total blank on the inscription...

--Dwight

Nope, not marked Germany, anywhere.

If that might be a GHP it looks like a later re-run of the 1900 presentation piece given to G.H. Powell of cartridge counter fame.

Wow, now that you mention it, the bottom tail of the C does appear to have 2 little ears, whereas the top has only one.
I wonder if it *is* a G?
Doesn't match to any fonts we have access to.
Is there a pic of the other one Powell got?
Let's try the magic of Photoshop...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/initials1.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/initials2.jpg

Anna, A very nice pistol! Great photo's too...If Ron Wood dosen't know...only the Shadow knows! Great setup, the cleaning rod is of special interest. Looks like a nice original.
Jerry Burney

Heh, comments from my German friend on the engraving:

"The decorative P, the knurled and double curled C, together with the bauhaus-y H is totally strange.

Amazing design to create without AutoCAD or Photshop.

It is one thing to hammer it out one after another, but all three letters are intriguingly complex intertwined.

Just as a final coup, different textures on the letters, too.

And if you turn it around, it probably says something rude in French."

:roflmao:

I also think it makes this one look primitive and suspect:
http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/870SPRes00.htm

Powell's 1900 presentation piece is on pages 50-51 of Kenyon's "Luger: The Multinational Pistol", but it is a lousy shot of the chamber engraving. It is gold inlaid and appears to be quite a different style of engraving from this one.

Thanks for looking Ron, it was a long shot, I suppose.

It may be a long shot but I wouldn't count it out of the running altogether. After all, there is a span of 5-7 years between the two guns and who knows who engraved each example...probably unlikely it would be the same engraver for both. The monogram looks like GHP to me (the extra little flourish is more like a G than a C). But, all that notwithstanding, there isn't a shred of evidence to link it to Powell (unless your family stashed away a documented provenance!), so it will probably remain a neat mystery. Thanks for posting it.

Here are some chamber engraving photos :

First one on a gun sold by Ralph Shattuck in the past year or two :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/engraving.jpg

Second one on a gun sold by Charlie Kenyon in the past year or so :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload..._carbine_3.jpg

Third one sold by Ralph Shattuck about 3.5 years ago (marketed by the Greg Martin auction house) :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ts_luger_1.jpg

Fourth one sold by Shattuck through the Phoenix Investment Arms outlet in the past 2 years :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ck_chamber.jpg

Fifth one a book photo scan of a Mexican presentation carbine chamber engraving :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/p_diaz_chamber.jpg

Here is a photo scan/zoom from the chamber marking on the gun in Kenyon's 2nd. book (Ron mentions above...) on pages 50-51 :

Kenyon states the initials are GHP.

I seem to see a "B" and not a "P"...and cannot see a "G" at all...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/powell.jpg

Hello Anna,

It is very difficult to give an opinion of a pistol based on images and without an inhand inspection, so I shall do the best I can based on your description and images. If you do not mind, I would like to give you my opinion of this particular pistol.

In my opinion, the engraving on the chamber is NOT factory engraved and, therefore, this leads me to feel that the pistol has been refinished after the engraving. The engraving is crude for a 'presentation' pistol, so this gives me bad vibes about this pistol. A presentation Luger from the DWM factory would definitely have a better polished finished than compared to what I see on this pistol. I have examined a few presentation Lugers in my hands including the M1902 'GL' HCR presentation carbine (see image hereunder) which was a gift from Mr. R. J. Reynolds of the Reynolds Tobacco Company to his Chief Financial Officer Mr. Harold Conwell Roan in 1903. His name is listed the the book entitled 'The Golden Leaf'.

When I carefully examine the condition on a Luger pistol, I look for CONSISTENCY. If this pistol would have retained 99% original factory finish, there would have been a high percentage of straw on the safety lever. The safety lever on this pistol has hardly any straw remaining and it is nearly smooth - there is no so-called 'tiger-grain' machine marks on the lever and these characteristics must be present, especially on a near mint pistol.

Furthermore, when I look at the various images, I do not notice any patina on the pistol. Every pistol made before 1945 WILL have some presence of micro patina no matter the amount of care given to the pistol.

You can accept or reject my opinion, and I apologize if I may have upset you. If you want to receive an accurate opinion, may I suggest that you make arrangements to allow Ron Wood to examine this pistol in his hands.

By the way, I like your Ideal rig which looks correct based on the images.

Albert
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...cleft_side.jpg

The polished area of the thumb safety on Anna's gun looks a bit odd, IMHO...maybe evidence of rework at some time...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/polished.jpg

Oh no offense taken at all, Albert.
I am presenting these guns to the community to get a wide range of opinion, and I thank you for yours.
I appreciate your input, and it will give me more things to look for on this gun.

I must defend the factory finish in this case though, as it passes all the sniff tests for a refinish, (inside rails in the white, under safety lever white with the blue appropriately bordered, etc.).

My photos are not doing the piece justice, and I would certainly prefer that it be examined in person.
I am in no way an expert or even reasonably practiced photographer, and I am afraid this is casting some doubt over the legitimacy of this gun.

Do you have a photo of the "tiger grain" straw effect you mention on the safety lever?
I would love to compare it to what I can see in person under good light.
I do indeed see age patina overall, but again, my photos did not show it, as the light may have washed it out a bit.

As for the engraving being "crude", I find it anything *but* that.
It is not gold filled, but the detail and craftsmanship is minute and quite perfect.

I will be patient until some of the more expert members in my area or within a state or so may be passing this way.
Mr. Wood knows my location, and would be welcome here anytime.

None of my guns are for sale, nor will they be, so there is certainly no attempt to pass off a gun as a fraud happening here.
I am very willing to admit if something is not right on any of my guns, but I am very convinced this one is right as rain.
Of course, I have the advantage of having it here in good light, in my hands, and you have only my rather poor photos of it to judge it by.

Thanks again for your information.

Pete,
Thanks for the blow-up of the chamber marking in Kenyon's book. Obviously the marking is ABT and not GHP. Gotta ask Charlie what the heck that is all about the next time I see him. Going to Louisville next month, maybe I'll see him there. Any chance you will be there?

Hi Anna

Albert is correct about the strawing, should have very fine lines (scratches) and yours does not. I also don't like the looks of your barrel alignment marks, even though that picture is a bit blurred. I also think I see evidence of a barrel wrench being used.
The grip screws should be fire blued and they look very worn in your pictures.
The engraving â??well it does look a bit unfinished to me, but that is an opinion only and shouldnâ??t weigh much.

It doesnâ??t mean it isnâ??t a presentation gun, but I tend to believe it has been messed with at some point; this shouldnâ??t surprise anyone if the gun was used or carried. As a family heirloom they often get a re-do treatment.

Vern

In strong light, the gun does indeed have the qualities that it is being faulted for lack of.
The photos are not showing finish details and patina correctly.
It obviously must be seen in person, but I completely understand your healthy skepticism.

I am learning. A little comparison here:

Someone on this Forum, a Moderator, I think, has pointed out that there is a tool which can be used to engrave metal. The tool is called a "Pantograph" (not sure of the spelling). It involves a rotary metal cutting tool, and a mechanical tracer which can be used to trace designs. Apparently it is similar to a "Pantograph" which is used to trace letters with an ordinary wood router. I have not seen one of these used to trace letters or designs in metal; however, I do have one which is used with an ordinary wood working router.

Now if you look at the ninth picture in this post, the one posted of the Monogram and posted on the 12th there is something that I think may be important.

Look at the right side of the left letter, which is the letter "C" or something like the letter "C." Please look at the inside edge of this letter, just slightly above the middle, and you will see a circular dot that looks almost like a slight period ("."). The middle of this letter, on the right side, has a concave indentation, and this little period is on the top side of this concave indentation. (Actually, it looks like there is one on the bottom side to; however, it does not show as clearly as the one on the top.)

I wonder if this period mark could be the result of a pantograph having been used to etch this Monogram?

Just a thought.

Mauser720 - Ron

Many companies, arms resellers, gun smiths and jewellers offered the possibility to engrave just about anything with just about any form of engraving.

Below is a sample shown from a 1907 catalog of 'Manufacture Francaise d'Armes et Cycles'. Note the style of the engravings (and the pricing in Francs).

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mf_engraving.jpg

Vlim -- Thanks for the ad. I heard French is not far away from English.... but obviously that's far away from fact. If possible, could you translate those service items on the ad into English. I am very curious about the engraving cost at the beginning of 20th century. Thanks.

Hi Ron,

It could be as simple as the folks doing the final lay-out of pages 50-51 in Kenyon's book made a mistake and mocked-up the wrong photo for the text...and it was not caught by the proof-reader...???

SOS in KY is not on my dance-card...I am working that week in NE State.

Alvin,

Here are two more "polished" thumb safety area photos to compare...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...hed_area_2.jpg


http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...hed_area_1.jpg

Anna,

An "in-the-white" frame interior by itself may not indicate a factory-original finish.

There have been in the past and there are some very skilled re-finishers still currently working...that do not make that mistake on guns that should be "white".

The recreation of the "polished" area under the thumb safety is also a pivotal sign of their rework skills. Some do it well so as to go undetected...others are still struggling with the technique.

Thanks Pete.

I totally understand the skepticism this gun is being greeted with.
Really, I do.
And I would not expect any less from this most discerning group of collectors.
But no hard feelings at all.

I am going to have to let the gun speak for itself in the hands of one of our most sharp eyed experts from the board at some time, to pass final judgement.

What I see in person, in strong light, is not what the pics are showing.

I just don't see any evidence of refinish here, live, in person.

I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.

I just hate drama, and am not known enough to have my opinion taken seriously in the collector community yet.

If it can be proven to me, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that I am wrong, I will accept it gracefully.

But the gun must be seen in person, the detail pics don't look like the gun I have in my hands.

Patina and striations are a tough thing to get pics of.

I looked at the two pictures that Pete posted aboved. Here is my summary of observation and understanding on the polished thumb safety area.... please correct me if I am wrong:

I have higher level of confidence on the first one:

(1) The edge pointed by the red arrow should be perfectly straight (and it is);
(2) The curve pointed by the blue arrow should be perfectly round (and it is);
(3) The edge pointed by the green arrow should be straight but very slightly blured than the top edge pointed by the red arrow (and it is);
(4) The pink encircled area has a very small unpolished area (and it is);
(5) The depth of polished area is very very shallow (and it is);
(6) No gun blue, nor too marks in the polished area... this area is usually ignored for oiling.... expect patina, light rust or even pits (and it is);

I have a question regarding the "ding" encircled by the white circle -- it has gun blue inside.... if it's a ding (e.g. hit by a nail), I did not see the rough edge around it, where did the metal go? It does not look like a pit either, because it's single and very shallow. I did not any reason to test steel hardness on this area either.

So, what is it? Could it be parts hiting each other in the bluing process and left this tiny mark?

Sorry, forgot the marked picture. Here it is:

Alvin,

That is probably a hardness test spot...in the area you circled in "white".

Similar to our Rockwell hardness test. Probably done before final sanding and bluing.

You see those on various guns from time to time...probably evidence of a random test sampling of metallurgy of parts on the factory floor as part of their QA/QC process.

The Swiss liked doing such a lot. I have two M1929 Bern Lugers that must have 6-8 of them, apiece, on each gun and another M1929 without any of the "dots". I would WAG that DWM and Mauser and maybe others tested parts from time to time as well...

The edge of the area you show in "red" will usually show a slight cut of the milling pass. You can feel this cut edge with your finger. The frame is blued and then the polished area is milled/cut to create the polished area.

Sometimes you can see/feel that "cut" along the green and blue areas as well.

That shows in the 2nd. photo I posted.

I think it just depends on how deep they set up for the milling cut/pass and if the gun was held truly square in the holding jig or not.

Here is a different view of the "cut" on the same gun in the 2nd. photo above...a M1900 DWM-Swiss...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/cut_view_copy1.jpg

Anna,

Glad you will have some folks look at your gun in person. That is always the best.

BTW...Ron Wood made this excellent posting about what patina is and what causes it in the past.

Thought you might enjoy the read :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...t=patina+photo

Alvin,

Here are photos of eight (8) "dots" on one of my M1929 Bern Swiss Lugers...

Two (2) dots on the left side of the frame "ear" :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ern_dots_1.jpg

Two (2) dots on the inside surface of the side plate and two (2) dots on the left frame rail...just above the trigger :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ern_dots_2.jpg

One (1) dot on the left side of the front toggle link :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ern_dots_3.jpg

One (1) dot on the right side of the rear toggle link :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ern_dots_4.jpg

Anna

I am only going to make two more comments and then leave this beautiful gun alone.

There seems to be some unusual coloration on the toggle knobs. This appears on both right and left sides. Most professional restorers know enough to leave the outside checkering alone but sometimes find that rust has invaded the edges and this must be removed. When this is done you sometimes end up with a two tone color of the knobs.

We like your guns Anna, but any time someone makes a 99% statement it opens up doors that are normal kept shut, there are so very few 99% guns.

Vern

Alvin,

One more photo for you to look at :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/metz_no_14_2_.jpg

Pete,

This one looks very questionable. Let's see making sense or not. Again, please correct me if I am wrong:

(1) It has been shot a lot. The area pointed by the red arrow was distorted. I bet this area is like the area behind bolt stop on C96.... with this area losing its shape, then it's supposed to be a well used (if not abused) gun. However, the percentage of gun blue and straw seems unusualy high on this one;

(2) The scratch (blue) created by the thumb safety level is not silverish metal color. Metal against metal, I expect silverish scratch;

(3) The polished area.... I don't know..... looks too deep to me, especially in the green circle;

(4) The straw on safety level .... looks refinished to me.

I would like to thank Alvin for posting two images of a safety area, the first image showing signs of embedded light surface dirt, patina and the 'tiger grain' machine marks'. These are signs of authenticity that the expert eye seeks. Even near mint guns reveal these stuttle signs to in the most tinest degree. For example, look at the grip straps were you MUST notice some patina which comes from normal handling wear.

Believe it or not, I have been collecting for 25 years, however, the majority of my expertise has been gained only in the last 10 years. How come? The reason was that I was not doing my 'homework' properly and I was overlooking the most important factors regarding originality. An European collector further educated me by explaining the true meaning and effects of age which cannot be avoided. Furthermore, he educated me about German quality during the Imperial and Nazi era, and every word that he told me was absolutely true when I saw it for myself. That type of education helped me to understand the 'the good, the bad and the ugly'. It does not take much skill to learn about collecting pistols if you are willing to accept these facts in your observations. I have had the privilage to examined quite a few near mint pistols in museums and private collections, both in the US and Europe, and every single gun which is genuine speaks for itself. When questions or suspicions start to 'pop up', its time to seek opinions from the real and honest experts.

In a subsequent post, Alvin seems to have gone 'over board' using 'surgically precision' (I'm pulling his leg), but the over-riding factor is simply natural aging and handling and the undisutable results that it creates over many, many years. Everything else is 'hog-wash' and it is the notion of time and research which will give meaningful answers. At the end of the day, the final decision lies in the hands of an owner and what standards he/she wants to use to determine authenticity and value.

In regards to German engraving from the early Imperial era, it was very classical and elegant. All the correct presentation Lugers (and Mausers) which I have examined had very fine quality engraving done at the factory and not the deep/chiselled cuts as shown on your pistol.

I hope this information is helpful to you and do not be afraid to ask an expert such as Ron Wood for his inhand examination. I would have gladly provided the (free) service to you, but I am not in the US.

Enjoy the hobby,
Albert

Alvin,

Here is the entire thread when this mint gun appeared on the LF...

More photos to look at...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...highlight=metz

Albert, Thanks for the comments. I just started collecting guns a little more than a year ago. I played guns, non-C&R modern guns, for many years but I did not pay any attention to details. If I close my eye and try to remember what the text on SIG 239's slide, I cannot remember.

Interesting enough, I did have a Luger back 10 years ago. It's an Interarms Mauser 9m/m with Swiss-like grip. Of course, I shot it a lot. One thing that I dislike @ that time -- the trigger and thumb safety were "yellow" ... why yellow? looks old, shouldn't silver look better? So I sanded them until they appeared shiny sterling. Purely stupid, but that seems to be a step many gun lovers went through.

Another topic. I believe you're right on early C96 internal finish. I dissembled a few from independent sources grading from 10% to 98%, all early ones (CH, LRH) that I opened were blued inside the frames.... but the receivers were "white". I swear that wartime 7,63s and 9s frames are "white/gray" inside. So, there are still some myth around Mauser.... why they kept changing those non-functional minor things from time to time is very unclear. But, that's a separate topic. It seems Luger people have done a lot of research and figured lots of things, but Mauser people are still struggling. Waiting for your new books, if possible, please speed up.

Pete --

Let me try this from a general gun's point of view, not a specific Parabellum pistol point of view because I am new on this.

The thumb safety missed a "tooth" in the middle area. Could this be another sign of a well used gun?

Also, there is a small group of "dots" on the receiver. It's not a single dot. I am alerted.

A C96 collector named me "alarmist". Yes, I was and I am. I could be wrong though.

Have any of you guys noticed that the paint is cracked on the Mona Lisa?

Ron,

This is the part that I have difficulty -- "what type of imperfection is
acceptable".... It's not hard to find a few questionable areas, and a 100-year-
old piece is supposed to have something less-than-perfect, but it's hard
for me to tell what's OK and what's not.

For the particular one posted by Pete, the gun blue and straw looks pristine,
the fire blue on grip screw is almost 100%, but the area of the frame that
collides with the toggle knob has bulge and the safety level lost a steel
tooth. I am thinking about this -- Why the fragile gun blue is perfect but
solid steel is not..... Could be fine under certain scenarios -- like, overpowered
ammo was used.... or it was dropped and the safety level lost a tooth.......