Unit Markings
 

VERY RARE ALL MATCHING SIMSON SNEAK UNIT MARKED L.E. 92. CAN ANYONE PROVIDE INFO?
THANKS
HN

Harvey,

Welcome to the forum. You will need to give us more information about this pistol if you want knowledgeable help. I can tell you that the pistol was issued to the Landj�¤gerei (rural constabulary) of the Prussian administrative district of Erfurt.

The terms "Simson" and "sneak" really don't go together. My guess is that you have what is known as a 29 DWM with a blank toggle. These were manufactured by BKIW (the successor to DWM) in 1929 and about 9000 of them were issued to the Prussian Landj�¤gerei. It probably has a serial number with a "t" or "u" suffix and may have WaA66 acceptance markings on the right side of the receiver. It probably has a sear safety and at least evidence of a former mag safety. While these are very nice Lugers, I would not say they are "very rare." For some reason, a high percentage of these found there way into western collectors' hands.

If you can, please post photos. I would also be very interested in knowing for my database of German police markings the full serial number with suffix, toggle logo, if any, acceptance markings on right side of the receiver and whether or not there is/were sear and mag safeties.

Welcome to the forum;

There is another police luger on this forum, here is L.E.136.

Not sure why Bob called it a sneak, as it has the dWM, so it is not a sneak...


BTW, using ALL CAPS is considered yelling on the internet, although it is okay if you have a medical condition (missing fingers etc) ;)

Ed

DON,
I truly appreciate your post and would not assume that I know more about this than you. I would however point you to page 231 of Kenyon LUGERS AT RANDOM, discussing Mauser and Simson Reworks of the early Nazi Era (1930-1933) "often referred to as "sneak lugers" . If you are interested in the markings and simson proofs look at page 241 in Kenyon. The luger shown is exactly as mine is marked with all of the simson proofs. Kenyon also states that there are very few of these. I go back to my original question about the regimental markings. L. E. 92.
Thanks and Happy New Year to all.
hn

hn, older information is sometimes wrong. Graham and I have a book on Simson Lugers, published this last summer.

Todays information says that the term "Sneak" lugers is used for those lugers that were made in the late 1920's and did not have a toggle marking.

The L.E.92 is not a regimental marking, but a police unit marking.
Here is what it said in another posting, although Don Maus has better information; Landjaegerei (rural constabulary) in the Erfurt district, weapon inventory #92

Here is the posting that I referred to earlier; http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=14377

As I said, it is NOT a sneak and in fact the sneak term has probably never been accuarate.

Simson reworked many lugers in the early 1920's then made new lugers through and up to about 1934. I am sure they reworked lugers also, as they were the official reworkers for the Reichswehr P08's, rifles etc.

In the late 1920's and early 30's parts were supplied and/or reworked by Simson and thus you see the eagle 6 or eagle 33 on police lugers.

I am sure yours has a sear police safety on it?


Ed

Harvey, as I mentioned originally, we really need more information about your Luger and good photos will go a long way toward satisfying that need. Other than the meaning of the grip strap marking, the rest of my comments were based on the most probable identification of your pistol in the absence of any information.

I looked up your reference to Kenyon p. 241 and this is a typical 29 DWM with a blank toggle. Collectors used to think that the blank toggle indicated an effort to "sneak" Lugers past the Allied authorities but this notion has been largely discounted in recent years. The Kenyon illustration has typical Weimar acceptance stamps including the E/WaA66 which is found on most of the Landj�¤gerei Lugers. The L.E.136. posting Ed refers to also depicts one of these Lugers and illustrates both the sear and mag safety. In this case, the toggle does have the DWM logo. If your Luger is like these, it is a 29 DWM.

Don,
the only marking on the toggle is a simson eagle on the left side forward of the pivot and the ser # on the rear. On the front of receiver are 3 simson proofs. photos are at ritesideproofs.jpg and barrell.jpg
thanks again
hn

help where did my photos go.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/ritesideproofs.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/barrell.jpg

Harvey, I'm no expert on acceptance stamps and will bow to a more knowledgeable opinion but I do not think any of these are Simson stamps unless there is a number 6 or 33 beneath the eagle on the left on the receiver and/or on the barrel. I can't tell from the photo. If they are, they would indicate rework by Simson of a 29 DWM. I have no idea how rare that would be.

yes, these are weimar acceptance stamps.

Can we see a top photo of the toggle

(I made the pictures show)

EACH time you upload, copy the entire URL, post it and then / either / go back in and edit it changing the URL letters to IMG or use the IMG and it'll do it for you.


Ed

IMG:TOGGLE.JPG

ED,
thanks again, but I don't understand the "change the URL to IMG" I can find the photo but don't see how to edit.
thanks again
hn

see the paper and pencil icon, that will allow you to edit your own posting lower right.


you'll see where the url (the clickable thingy) and by changing it to img on both ends, it tells a computer to "show" the picture. :)


ed

Harvey, would you please let me know the serial number and letter suffix (under the number on the front of the frame) for my database?

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/fronthn_copy1.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/toggleHN.jpg

Don
serial number is 4048. there is no letter on the front of the receiver. there appears to be a character under the ser # on the barrell, but it is clear and crisp but I can't make it out.
h

Looks like a "u" suffix to me.

you know more than I. Is the U significant?

It goes with the serial number.

Yours with no toggle marking is called a sneak by many collectors, and the "u" suffix would be at the very end of DWM production (it would be correct)


ed

The u is part of the serial number. The number is 4048u. The numbering system would be xxxxt then xxxxu, 9999t would be followed by 01U The letter series are often referred to as "blocks" The s,t, and u blocks mark the end of the DWM factory production in Berlin. The s block starts in approximately 1929, and is more exactly BKIW production, as the treaty commission had by then forced DWM out of ownership. Your u block was probably produced around 1930 before production was transferred to Mauser in Oberndorf.

Many of the reported u block Lugers have police chahacteristics and Police acceptance numbers. If you look on this forum you will find Dwight Gruber's commercial serial number database which lists several P08s with serial numbers within 100 of yours with police markings.

Your pistol does have a sear safety, a sure indicia of Police use and appears to have a shaved frame front. This may indicate some renumbering but is perfectly acceptable in this part of the u block.

Please do not mount your pistol in a vise to take pictures. Lay it on a piece of paper and use a tripod if you have one.

thanks, I knew you would say that. PS: It was not pinched in the vise only sitting in a rag between the jaws. In my work room that is the only way to get enough light.
regards
hn

Harvey,

Could you please confirm whether or not this gun has a crown-over-N proof mark on the left receiver? Thanks much.

--Dwight

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/9270toggle.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/9270left.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/9270rite.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/9270barrell.jpg

Nice pictures :-)

hey, thats a Simson :)

my records show #9270 has a matching magazine. I am guessing I found the information from a dealers listing, because I have no name associated with the record (I don't ever share that info btw)


Ed

yes it has a matching mag. how far back is your database? I have owned this one since 2000.

my database was not started until 2003, however, I received about a hundred numbers from a long time collector, then spent the next 2-3 years assigning further information and adding to it. I purposely bought a hundred or so Shattack, Hoffman and Simpson, LTD lists, some dating to the early 1960's, in addition to receiving direct information from owners and gun shows. I do not include iffy or not sure items into the database. The majority have been secondarily researched by myself, Graham or other collectors.

I am now up to 419 serial numbers; which consists of;

Serial number
acceptance and proofs on the right
Does the stock lug have markings (it should have either E6 E6 or E33 E33
Toggle marked either S or simson & co, Suhl
Does it have police charecterisitcs? (sear only, none or sear & mag safety)
and I have a remarks section (reblue)
Who owns it, or reported it or if it came from a gunboard or listing (this information is never shared, but is handy for me to see where the pistol resides)

Ed

I purchased this one from Hoffman.
h

when did the thred change guns?
it went from 4048 to 9270.