Two GNR Lugers
 

I have today been reliably informed that two consecuativly numbered GNR lugers are coming up for auction down under here in early March.
If any one is interested please contact me.

Murray,

Are these the two GNR's that a NZ collector originally purchased from Goran Glucina via AZ State here in the USA ?

I understand those two guns were "forced matched".

They were SN 2374v and SN 2375v.

http://luger.gunboards.com/uploaded/...tuff%20020.jpg

http://luger.gunboards.com/uploaded/...tuff%20022.jpg

Hi Pete,
Yes, you are correct, they are the two same guns but I never knew that they were "forced matched".
It is about 8 years since I saw them and at that time only briefly.
Very interesting. What else do you know about them?
Regards

Time to display my ignorance again..."GNR" Lugers? "Forced" matching?
Help! What do these terms mean?

Zamo, "forced matched" is where someone, such as at an aresenal (that is what everyone wants to beleive ;)) or more likely private USA individuals "make" a part the same numbers or style of the other parts. In other words, forced the parts to now match the gun.


I have no idea what a GNR is... It has something to do with Porteguese lugers, but I have never understood where the GNR abbreviation comes into play...

The Portuguese Republican National Guard (Guarda Nacional Republicana or GNR in Portuguese) is the Portuguese gendarmerie.

564 guns were delivered in 1935, confirmed by official sources.

A large GNR is stamped on the receiver top.

Vern

Zamo,
A GNR Luger is a Portuguese contract of which 564 were delivered in 1935, but were made in the 1906 model style with a grip safety, 7.65mm and 4 3/4" barrel. They have an intertwined GNR on the chamber, which stands for Garde Nationale Republicanie (Republic National Gaurd).
Mike C.

Zamo, don't let these brainy guys fool you. GNR stands for "Guns N Roses"... Any rocker would know that!!

:D

Hehe.. ya I was going to say.. did these belong to Axl Rose or something? :roflmao:

Another interesting thing about a force matched gun is that often there is no attempt made to hide the original numbers on a force matched part. By this, I mean that the original number will simply have a chisel mark across it, and the new number will be stamped somewhere near the old number. In a case like this, it is obvious that there was nothing to hide. In other words, this was probably done at a government arsenal, or as a field expedient repair.

However, in the two pictures which Pete has provided, you can see several things: (1) The old numbers (if there ever were any) have been obliterated; (2) The new numbers show a degree of "slopiness" that would have never been tolerated on an originally numbered part; and, (3) Unless you knew what you were looking at, you would think these parts were originally numbered to these particular guns.

So why would anyone do this?

Answer: To claim the guns are all matching and thereby increase their value when they are sold.

Mauser720 - Ron

Some collectors seem to be willing to pay a price premium for consecutively-numbered guns as well...assuming both individual guns are factory-matching and the SN's of each gun are originally 1 gun apart from each other when they left the factory.

Thanks for the clarifications.

"Momma take these guns from me, I can't shoot them anymore"
seems an appropriate GNR lyric (even if penned by Dylan).

"Forced match" is normally when some small parts are re-numbered (or numbered from a un-numbered spare part) to appear to be an original parts that left the Luger factory with that gun.

"Forced consecutively numbered" would be to take two guns that are not originally 1 serial number apart and modify the SN stampins on one or both guns to get them to appear to have been made at the Luger factory side-by-side on the same day.

I guess a worst-case scenario (or a best-case...) in Luger booster-heaven would be to take 2 guns that each have been individually forced-matched and then force them to appear consecutively numbered to each other, as well...

Force match Until now for me was, when someone match any mismatched part of the gun with an original part from another gun, but with the last two numbers equal ( same ) to the serial number of the mismatched gun.
Alf

Which is the old number and which is the old number?
How can you tell which is which?
Alf
:)

I think the "new" number on one of the triggers is the "7". The original number under this "7" appears to possibly be a "3"...or another different number.

The strike of the "7" is the most recently struck number...as it is fully developed and not intersected by the older number underneath it.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...gernumbers.jpg

Alfred,

Examine the lower photograph above under high magnification and you can see that the numeral "7" was the last one stamped into the metal over an existing numeral "6" or "8"... The last displacement of the metal by the stamp is usually pretty easy to discern.

Looks like Pete and I pulled the "trigger" on that last explanation at exactly the same time :)

Murray,

Here is some of the history of these GNR's and a M1914 Navy (1917-dated) from the same seller in NZ :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4663

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4830

BTW...I have a scanned copy of the sales receipt for these 3 guns (plus one other...a M1900 AE) when they originally left AZ State in 1998 and headed to the NZ broker.

Thanks for the information Pete,

Apart from the "condition" of the GNR's which I understood claims were made of them being between 75% and 95% I was not ever aware that they were a forced pair and I doubt that any one did until the time of the posts in 2005 (which I had not seen nor was aware of.

Forum members might not be aware that there is a "Sales of goods Act" in New Zealand which provides that if you are unsatisfied with a purchase you have the right of return and refund, replacement or repair with in 3 days.

I saw them first (briefly)in August 2001 after they had changed hands in early 1999. They looked like typical "used" military guns, (which of course they were)

I have no interest in them whatsoever and only mentioned them in the off chance some one was interested as they were coming up for sale.......in fact I now wish that I had never made the post...

The older I get the more naive.

In my next life I think I will be a stamp dealer, beats the hell out of carrying heavy cases of guns to gun shows......but there are fakes in that field to...ain't there.

Murray,

It is good you made the posting...you should have no regrets doing so.

Collectors will know they are back on the market.

Murry,
I'm glad you made the post. I learned a lot from it. All of us (new collectors) need this kind of info.
BTW, the US supplier of the guns was never named. I think his name should be posted as a sticky on all the forums. I would think that most of the people that have been robbed by this person don't have the time or wherewithall to go after him in court to get there money back.
Mike C.

Wow, You guys know your stuff, ;) Thanks for the info.
Alfred

I am bringing up this old post to point out another pair of consecutive serial numbered GNR LUGERS. They are being offered for sale by Cabelas. Here is a link to that offering:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/co...30_2214_kc.jsp

Mike

Five grand for a GNR??!!! Guess I will have to stop using mine to prop open the door.

Ron, just replace the GNR doorstop with your Krausewerk .45 as it is probably shot even less, eh? :D

I would submit that BOTH numbers on the triggers are redone, just one more poorly than the other. It appears that the "grinding" to reduce metal covers the area of both numbers and neither is the same font as the rest of the visible numbers.

Early Mauser guns mix fonts, this may or may not be a problem.

The GNR's are rare but appear on the market pretty often, I am with Ron in that this price is on the high side. I think most survived and even though rare by their initial numbers they may not be as rare as some of the other Lugers that had initially higher production numbers but are now hard to come by.

It's really about supply and demand.

Several of the GNR's appearing on the market have really strange looking fonts, they look messed with on close inspection, I don't have a good explanation for this, but it shows up often enough to be at least a small concern.

Please be careful on any purchase, buyer beware, I kid you not!

Vern

Funny, but Cabellas has 2 consec. GNR pieces for sale right now. Different numbers however. What are the odds?
DJU

oops, guess I should have read the second page before posting. My bad...

I wrote to Cabelas and asked this questions:

Greetings,
Would you please tell me if the serial number on each Luger is followed by a letter "v".

Their answer:
"NO"

NO "V"----OUCH!!!!!!!

Thanks Mike!!!!!!

I hope this is not true and the person you talked to didn't know what they were talking about.

I think the guns may still be OK, but obviously if the suffix is not there then they have been forced matched.

What caught my eye was the deep scratches on the toggle but not on the flats of the upper, this just doesn't happen very often in real life. It screams parts gun.

A full in hands inspection would be required before purchase with 3 day return policy.


Vern

Vern, It seems that the GNR Lugers were made with the letter V, if I am understanding you correctly. :rolleyes:
Alf

..........

Which means that these are NOT consecutive serial number GNR pistols.

Mike B,
You may have stumped the guy at Cabelas with the wording of your question... "serial number (followed by) a letter v". Most people unfamiliar with Lugers don't realize that the "little squiggly emblem" (under) the serial number is the suffix.

Mike,
I would agree that most or some of the suffix letters look like "little squiggly emblems", but the letter "v" looks like a "v". I will call the salesman today.

Mike

Just spoke to "BC" at the Gun Library in Kansas City, Kansas and had a very nice conversation. The Lugers came out of a collection in the Chicago area. He did substantiate that both Lugers do have a "v" suffix.

Mike