New member-question
 

I have posession of the following and don't know where to begin getting information about such a weapon. Any information would be helpful.

P-08 Luger pistole

Serial number: 7456
Date : 1913
Condition : 95%
Matching numbers, including one magazine with wooden butt cap.
Cal.: 9mm Parabellum
Original Ammo head stamp: â??9 m/m LUGER WRA,â?� seven rounds.
Manufacture: DWM Deutsche Waffen und Munitionfabrik (DWM)
Proof marks: C/W, C/W, C/F, Prussian Eagle (Fractur Gothic letters)
Unit markings: â??17.U.â?� (17th Ulanen {lancers, cavalry}

Captured from a German tank commander by Sgt. John Lex in Belgium, spring of 1944. Sgt. Lex was commanding an American Sherman tank. Included is a holster, dated 1916, and extra magazine of later manufacture with aluminum butt cap.

Magazine contains original ammunition, seven rounds.

Hi Ralph,

It appears as though you have already researched it. What more did you want to know?

Welcome to the forum. A very nice Ulanen marked 1913.

Ron

Thanks for the reply, Ron. I've put together some info that I included in my post, but I'd like to know if anyone has info about the proof marks, the 17th Ulanen (is that from WWI or WWII?). Is it surprising to find such a weapon on an officer so late in the war? It seem likely that this pistol was issued in the First WW, but the condition is amazing. Were these guns refurbished before being re-issued in WWII?

I just want to learn all I can about Lugers in general and this weapon in particular. The soldier that brought this home was my father-in-law and a hero to me.

I've been reading info on this site and some of the posts and have learned more about Lugers this evening than I have in the past year. Thanks to all for the information.

The 17th Ulanen was an Imperial Scout/Cavalry unit. It was disbanded at the end of WWI. Ulanen were light Scout/ Raiders whom the French despised and feared. For long after, the term Ulanen was a synonym in France for "The Boogie Man".


The Reichswehr 12th Reiter Regiment carried on the tradition of the 17th Ulanen during the 20s.

Your 1913 was indeed used during WWI, possibly between the wars and on into WWII, obviously.

The 17th Ulanen was part of the 23rd Infantry Division and 8th Cavalry Division during WWI.

It fought in Belgium , Marne, Aisne in 1914

Aisne, Somme, in 1915 and 1916

Champagne 1917

At the Battle of the Somme, Champagne, 2nd Battle of the Marne and Artois in 1918.

It was a distinguished unit...

Many Cavalry units were transitioned to Mechanized or Armored units during the 30s much the same as the U.S. Army transitioned at that period.
So, it makes sense that a tank officer would have a Cavalry marked Luger.


Hope this helps... What is the complete unit mark? Can you post a photo of it?

Ron

Thanks for the great information, Ron. Here is the photo you requested. My photography equipment is not the best for this kind of work, but I think you can see the markings well enough.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/17b_copy1.jpg

Here is a photo of the fractur markings that I am curious about. Any thoughts?

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/17cjpg_copy1.jpg

unit marking
 

Hey, I think I just figured out how to post photos directly with my reply.

The other marks are standard Proof and Acceptance marks found on all military Imperial (pre-1919) Lugers.

It appears that your pistol is a "stab" (staff) pistol. This would account for the excellent condition. Staff pistols were marked with just the primary unit mark. In this case 17.U. meaning that it was not issued to a Squadron and hadn't been placed in the weapon inventory. No weapon number added.

Staff pistols were kept in the unit armory for issue as needed. Staff pistols therefore saw little use and are found usually in good condition. Most Cavalry Lugers show fairly heavy use due to bouncing around in their holsters as the troopers rode.

Nice photos...

Ron

Thanks, again. There is much to learn about these marvelous pistols and you've helped me get a good start. I have no intention of shooting this piece, but hope to purchase a "shooter" soon and getting trigger time.

welcome to the forum, I see Ron has answered your questions.

You can post pictures two ways, the one with just the url can be changed from url to img and then the picture shows

or

you can upload one picture at a time in each posting. the advantage of the first way is you can upload 2, 3, or more pictures into the same posting.

Ed

Thanks, Ed. I am new to internet forums and will likely make a few mistakes as I find my way around. I appreciate the tips.

you're welcome and you seem like you're doing pretty darn good so far.


ed

What is the serial number (with suffix) of this pistol? This is the first 1913 either DWM or Erfurt that I have seen issued to a cavalry unit.

Serial number: 7456. There is no suffix. I don't have time this morning to post a close-up, but you can see the serial number in the first photo at the top of this thread. When I get home this evening I'll post some close-ups of the markings including the DWM crest. Thanks for your interest.

Drew, I would advise getting a stainless brush (won't hurt the rust blue finish) and some solvent and clean the rust off of the unit markings. I would also guess that your haven't had the grips off, and that there is some rust under them. Please clean & oil, as rust will only get worse and doesn't add to the value of your fine PO8. TH

Thanks for the tip, Doc. This gun sat untouched in its holster in an underwear drawer for 60 years! It is amazing to me that the finish is as near pristine as it is. I have cleaned and oiled very thoroughly since I've had it, but am fearful of doing any damage to the finish. You are right in that I have taken nothing apart, not even the grips. I am not unfamiliar with the cleaning and maintenance of firearms, but this one is special and I appreciate any helpful tips such as yours.

Here are a few more photos of the 1913 Ulanen P-08.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/l2_copy2.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/l1_copy3.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/l3_copy2.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/l4_copy2.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/l5_copy2.jpg

Ralph,
There aren't many Imperial military Lugers in that condition left on the planet. Just beautiful. Be careful when removing the left grip. No force necessary.

Tom (Lugerdoc),
I know you know waaaay more than me about lugers, but are you sure about the brush? I've heard of using brass or copper brushes but not stainless.
Mike C.

A stainless brush works well, but it must be a very fine bristled brush. They are about the size and shape of a toothbrush, not the large size used to clean rust off of your barbeque grill or wrought iron gate. I do not like to use brass or copper brushes because they leave a colored residue on the gun. However, usually the residue can easily be removed with 0000 steel wool and oil

Your 1913 DWM Ulan mark Luger is in select company. Very few of them are reported. I have a 1912 Erfurt unit marked to the 15 Ulan. Congrats on a fantastic find.

Thanks all for the comments. I am going to collect more info and be patient about doing anything on this pistol. I've used 0000 steel wool and oil to clean light rust from other guns with no problems, but none of these other guns have the significance to me that this one has. You all have already informed me of many facts and issues I didn't know, so I'll not be in too big of a hurry with this project.

Does any one have any thoughts on preserving the leather holster? Again, I have done nothing as yet and don't want to make any stupid mistakes. As an aside, I saw a similar holster for sale on eBay that went for over $800! The monetary value of this rig is unimportant to me as I will never sell it. It actually belongs to the Lex famiy and I am the present custodian.

In the photos the pistol and holster look oily, but that is an artifact. (Any tips on photography would also be appreciated.) There is only a light coating of Royal Purple Synfilm on the pistol and nothing on the holster. BTW, my son, a .50 cal., Marine gunner recently returned from Iraq introduced me to Synfilm. That's what he used on his M-2 and swears by it. Any thoughts?

I, too, am a newby here, and I hope I am not hijacking a topic. this is my first post here. Nice to finally find a resource for our Luger's.

I, too, have a 1913 Luger that appears to be a sister of the ones above. It is stamped 1913 on the barrel, the serial number is 9596, and it is a 9mm. The rest of the components have the numbers 96 on them, which I assume are numbers matching for this Luger. It has the DWM marking on its top, and 4 markings on the right side of the barrel, like the ones in the picture links drewas posted above (thank you for them, sir). I don't know what those 4 markings/insignia mean yet, but they look close to what his picture has. I need to spend some time in the identification areas here, that is for sure.

It has no markings on the outside faces of the trigger guard, nor the pistol grip metal. The wood is in fair condition, the blueing isn't in good condition, has the starting of minor pits, but the weapon isn't rusted.

The only item with a different number is, of course, the clip, marked 5842, with an italic small I and plus (+) sign below it, and an insignia that has three horizontal lines, with a vertical line in its center, and the number 37 under it. This same insignia is also stamped twice on the main body of the clip, along with the number 37, along with a number stamped 122. The clip is dark color, (blueing?) and has an aluminum end cap, with a roll pin through the center of the finger pull rounds on the aluminum.

I have 44 original rounds for this Luger. I fire modern ordinance through it when it gets "exercised".

I have a holster, same as shown, has German identification writing on it, and with a date of 1913, but it is very faded. The leather isn't in great condition.

I don't know how to post pictures, and telling me how to do it is like telling and making a blind, deaf and dumb person build a nuclear power plant, so.....can someone post them if I take some, and send them to you...please?

My father brought this Luger back from Europe when he was fighting there in early 1942, as a Marine fighter pilot, and kept it with him through his service in the South Pacific, with Pappy Boyington. My father passed away in late 1961, and this Luger has been mine since then, when I was 13 years old. Up until now, the only info on this Luger was that it was supposedly somewhat rare, being a 1913, and not much info in books I have seen so far, which hasn't been much. But, that was long before internet sites and resources like this one even existed. I learned how to disassemble, clean and reassemble this Luger when I was 8 years old, and it is a good, trusted true friend. I fire it every year, as my father and I did years ago, and it is dead on accurate.

As I said, I hope I haven't hijacked this topic, but I am so happy to see others with this year and type Luger, I had to post. THANK YOU, ALL.

The best leather product to clean and preserve leather holsters is (Kiwi) Saddle Soap. Simply produce a lather on the leather and wipe it off with a damp sponge. Let the leather dry at room temperature and afterwards buff it with a wooly cloth. The results are great and it does not change the color of the leather.

To preserve your pistol beyond your life span, occasionally wipe your pistol with a Rig-Rag with Rig Universal Grease applied to the wiper.

Albert

DaveRay, welcome to the thread. I am certainly a newbie, but am impressed witht the depth of informantion of the moderators and posters here. I'd like to see some photos of your P-08 and I'll post them for you, if you wish. You can send them to me at drewas@gmail.com.

IA, thanks for the info on leather treatment.

Ralph,

About the rust around the unit marking...

Why not leave it as is but apply a little gun oil to keep the rust in check ?

Your Luger took nearly 90 years to acquire that little spot of rust. It also helps "tell" that your gun is old, factory original, and has not been re-done.

Making the unit marking brand-spanking new looking might just destroy some of your gun's history and age.

drewas, e/mail and pictures sent.

Thank you again, and please, to you, your family, and everyone on these boards, have the Safest of Merry Christmas's, and, the Happiest of New Year's.

Best regards,

Dave Ray

Pete, your comments about leaving well-enough alone as to the slight rust around the unit marking kind of makes sense to me. As I said earlier, this pistol sat virtually untouched in a drawer for 60 years and seems to have held up pretty well. For now, I just intend to keep it oiled and in a controlled temperature and humididty environment until I know a lot more about this piece and know with certainty that I am doing no harm.

Dave, I got your photos and will work on getting them posted for you soon. Thanks.

DaveRay's photos
 

Here are some photos from DaveRay that he asked me to post. It is another 1913 Luger and Dave told us more about it in a prior post.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mvc010l.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mvc011l.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mvc014l.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mvc015l.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mvc016l.jpg


Merry Christmas and a Blessed New Year to all.

Doc

drewas, thank you for posting the links, sir.

I can't very well make the 4 markings out on the front of the barrel, is there anyone that can elaborate on them further? I take it that these markings identify the useage/construction of the weapon?

Thanks,

Dave.

Dave, when you say the front of the barrel, do you mean the front of the receiver (front of the barrel makes me think of the front sight)?

if so, then yes, they are acceptance and proof markings.

Also, it would be better to start your own thread on your 1913, i can copy pictures to that new thread if you'd like and/or split this thread...


Ed

DaveRay here is a link to an article regarding some of the markings on Lugers: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~dvivas/a...nspectors.html

The markings on your pistol's right receiver are crowned Fraktur Gothic letters (the first three, L to R) followed by a Prussian Eagle. The article above tells you more about these markings.

Sorry to not have been here for a while.

Ed, that would be nice to migrate my Luger to its own topic.

I am just wondering what the use was for this particular Luger, as I was told by my dad it was taken in one of the WW's. from an officer.

I read the linked article, and didn't comprehend much of it.

Thank you, all.

Ralph, If you ammunition is marked WRA it is not 3rd Reich ammo. WRA is the head stamp for Winchester Repeating Arms. Also tank commanders in the German armor were often not commisioned officers.
The pistol is really nice!

Thanks for the info about the ammo. The ammo in the magazine has been there since the 40's. It is possible the original ammo was emptied before bringing the pistol home and then loaded with ammo from a local shop.

My father-in-law (a SSgt.) always referred to the German tank commander as an "officer," but it is quite possible he was an NCO. I regret I never got the detailed story of how this came about. I have a suspicion that the German commander surrendered himself, his crew and his tank without a fight, possibly because he was out of fuel or ammo and by that time many Germans realized that the war was lost.