1936 Mauser Banner Siamese at Simpson LTD
 

There is a Banner Siamese 4130v listed on the Simpson web site, any comments on this gun, other than price and magazine?

I am seriously considering buying this gun, so you input is valued. This is a new area for me, so â??help.

OK, to make fun of the condition, there is a reason I donâ??t post many pictures of my guns, this one fits nicely in with several others I have. :roflmao:

Thanks

Vern

Hi Vern,

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=4277

It sure looks like a honest, worn gun...something you want to see in a gun that saw duty in the humid SE Asia area.

Do you have "The Luger Book" by John Walters. Page 246 has some useful info.

If you do not have it, let me know and I would be happy to scan/email it to you.

There are two things I would want to do for myself if I were considering a purchase :

1. Ask the Simpson shop to send me a photo of the back of the frame to show the Siamese markings.

2. Get it straight in my mind if one would expect the "Mauser hump" on a 1936 dated pistol or not...(I just do not follow Mauser stuff and do not know).

Bill Munis, a LF member whom tragically passed away way too early (only in his early 50's), sent me this email many years ago when I ask him about the appearance of the "hump".

Here was his email to me from 5-2002 time frame :

" Hi Pete,
The "Mauser Bumb" -- I call it the mauser hump -- is usually found on the early K-dates, but is actually scattered throughout the whole K-date production. Later later K-dates seldom have the "hump" though and all G-dates and 1936's do not. In mid 1937 the "hump" became a standard production proceedure and it is found on all Mausers after this. The 1937
S/42 is a neat year with lots of variations -- one of them is the strawed guns with a hump -- as all strawed 1937's did not have the hump until the very last ones -- a transition gun -- and all the all blued 1937 S/42's have the hump. Hope this answeres your question. If not, write me back and I'll try to help you out. -- Bill Munis "

p.s.

Here is Joop's study of the v-series Mauser guns over on Jan Still's gun boards...some mention of the Siamese guns :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8981

Thanks Pete

Joop did a great job researching the â??vâ?� series, yes they can have the â??humpâ?�.
Thank you Joop!!!â??I would have been worried if not for your research.

John Walter makes an interesting statement on page 246, â??The extractor and safety lever recess are blankâ?�

I know 4236v is marked in the safety area, so the question is, is this a misprint or are some of the Siamese Lugers actually blank? I am not sure if 4130v is marked or not.

Vern

I am going to answer my own post here, encase someone is actually interested in Siamese lugersâ??yes their rough and some say ugly, but I like them because of the history and country they represent. With 45 years of service I think Thailand liked their Lugers.

Again, from Joopâ??s report on the â??vâ?� series, all those Siamese Lugers noted do in fact display both Gesichert/Geladen. I am unsure what John Walter is referring too when he makes his statement except that it might refer to the serialization of the extractor and safety lever.

His book â??The luger Storyâ?� page 213 also says the same thing.

If anyone is interested I will post detailed pictures both inside and outside once I receive the gun, if not, thanks for your time.


Vern

Hi Vern,

I, for one, will look forward to seeing your detailed photos.

I am glad to hear your name is behind the "hold" note next to the gun on the Simpson web site.

It is difficult to understand what Walters may meant when he wrote that info. Maybe it is as simple as the one and only gun he saw in person had some field-work done (i.e. removal of the Gesichert and a replacement, unmarked extractor...???...or maybe that one had a frame with a polished thumb safety and it was over-blued...???).

With your detailed photos, we can see a Siamese in more detail and learn a bit more from it.

Wonder what type of holster the police in Thailand used...??? That would be the 2nd. half of a challenging search...

Since many of the Dutch holsters from Indonesia have survived, you should be hopeful in your Thai search !

My search woud start in all the Thai restaurants near my home run by an older couple who immigrated. You might get useful info and a great meal, at a minimum...;)

I am interested in these too (lord knows why ;))

I know that a bunch of Siamese pistols came into country, along with arisaka and papa nambus (if memory serves me right) 15-20 years ago.

not sure about holsters, but you know they had them :)

Thanks Pete/Ed

I was beginning to think I was the only interested collector.

There are a couple of documents that come with the gun that should be interesting.
One is a document from Odin to the original owner, discussing the gun condition and one is unreadable â??not sure what that is, they did not think that it was the certification from Bangkok that some people talk about, just an ID tag of some sort.

Does anyone have an example of what the Bangkok cert looks like?

Oh yes the holster, that would be nice, but where to start? I guess period pictures. I wonder if the holster has the Siamese script on it, and if they were serialized to the gun?

Finding the correct magazine for it also concerns me, is anyone absolutely sure what they looked likeâ??did they have the E/66 proof â?? from Joopâ??s report it seems they were serialized but as to other proofs if any, I am not so sure.

Only time will tell.

Vern

The mags should have the folded nickeled tube with alum bottom pinned at rear. Marked only with the 4 digit serial number over a large flowing "V" and NO military acceptance proofs. TH

Can any one read this card?

It came with the Siamese Luger, I am not sure what to make of it.
Any help would be appreciated

thanks

Vern

Hi Vern,

Now that your new jewel is home, could you post photos of the Thai markings on the back of the frame ?

Hi Pete

I am in the process of cleaning it up, I always do a top to bottom cleaning, I have found that if the grease has dried, it often hides active rust. I am happy to say only minor pitting under the grips in this case.

No grand discoveries on markings, but I do see an interesting trend on barrel to frame SN numbers that deserves some research. There is a slight chance that it might explain why some of the Siam Lugers appear out of sequence.

Joop has done such a great job on the "V" series, theres not much to add.

I will post a couple of pics of the guns internal markings later in case someone wants to compare.

They included a copy of the original advertisement, listing the serial numbers of the guns Odin imported--if there is an interest I will post also?

1981 doesn't seem all that long ago for me, but its been quite some time after all.

Here is a close up of the property marks.

Translates to 368 ( I think)

Vern

Vern -

Yes, you are correct about those three numbers being "368"

Mauser720 - Ron

Vern

It would be apprectiated if you would post the advertisment.

Vern,

No "slight" intended towards your gun...and I am pulling your chain a bit...and maybe injecting some humor...

But I could never figure out the art-work of the Siamese stylized Lion at all...

I only seem to see "Daffy Duck" looking towards the right side with a Little Red Ridding hood on over his head...

Same when I look at Walter's "The Luger Book" on page 247...


http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/thaimark.jpg

Yes, that is a funny looking lion, I tried to find a better picture on the internet of what the stamp was depicting but didnâ??t have much luckâ??maybe someone else will have better luck.

I had some trouble getting the old advertising to be clear enough to read with the size restrictions, so I have broken it down into two pictures.

I also have the entire page scanned into one PDF file ( about 2 Megs) that I will be happy to send to anyone who requests. Just PM me your email address: for most the pictures should be fine.

Enjoy

Vern

Bottom Half

Fellows -

Somewhere I remember reading that the Siamese Luger proof mark was a stylized Lion head, rather than an entire Lion. So with that in mind, it is still difficult to visualize what it is supposed to be, but it is possible.

Think about the long dragon costume you see in a Chinese New Year's parade and the type of Lion-like head you see on the "dragon." It is something like that.

Here is a drawing I made that closely approximates the proof mark. I did mess up the beard on the chin a little bit (I am certainly no artist), but I think if you compare this to the proof mark, you will be able to see it too.

Mauser720 - Ron

Ron and Vern...

Here are some images I found for Thai or Siamese lion-dogs...(not to be confused with our most of our politicians whom are usually a different sort of lion-dog...) :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/siam_lion_dog.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...lion_dog_2.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/thai_lion_dog.jpg


I keep looking at Vern's proof stamp...cannot see anything besides a cartoon character...

It must be like on of those posters sold at Malls a few years ago...geometric pattern...you stare at it long enough and see Moses parting the Red Sea...;)

I have a Hi-Power that is an early pos war contract for the Thai government.

Markings were added to it. Unfortunately I am not sure if I have it upside down or not. (The marking is not a vertical marking.)

Charlie

The URL below is a useful one, go to the Browse and click on the different symbols, I see you have both words and numbers in your inscription.
It looks right side up to me in the picture--good luck.


http://www.thai-language.com/dict/


Vern

As promised here are the front and rear frame well markings of my gun.
I find the use of the â??Uâ?� inspector mark along with a number interesting as this is a Mauser.

The most interesting thing, for me anyway, is the difference between fonts used on the frame and the rest of the gun. As I was not familiar with Mauser markings this concerned me quite a bit. For you die hard Mauser collectors this is old knowledge but I think it is interesting and this gun just happens to show the two most often encountered variations the â??3â?� and â??1â?�.
I have talked to Joop on this, but I would be interested in other collectors opinions as to why this occurred.

Thanks for looking

Vern

I've been away from this board for some time and am catching up on what I've missed. I think this is fascinating. I'm sure glad Pete and/or others pointed out about the "lion dogs." I would have sworn I was looking at a wolf.