1912 Refinish Or Not...???
 

What do you all think...original finish or not...?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=84878671

Pete -

I am guessing that it is not the original finish for two reasons:

(1) He makes this statement in his listing: "It looks like bottom part of the barrel at the chamber and left side at the chamber were spot touch up with rust blue after some pitting was removed." I don't know if you can do a "spot touch up" with anything other than typical cold blue; however, I could be wrong.

(2) And I would have expected to see some indication of finish wear beneath the safety lever. Maybe it is there, but I can't see it.

So I am going to guess that it has been refinished in at least in some places with typical cold blue.

Mauser720-Ron

Hi Ron,

The side view photos and inside frame well photos look really promising. Lots of "in the white" surfaces down in the wells.

There are no "halos" on the barrel serial number. Depth of the barrel SN looks pretty shallow as well

Also...no "halos" on the 2-digit numbers on the extractor and the toggle link.

The partially cropped "9" on the chamber date had me worried as well.

I think parts of this gun may have had touch ups...other parts may still have their original finish.

Also...no impact or strike marks along the back of the frame where you usually see contact with the toggle train in its rear-most travel during firing :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1912.jpg

The barrel was clearly redone but the rest is questionable and does look good. I wonder if it was pulled to redo the barrel wear from the holster or pitting. I know a guy who lathed one ever so slighlty to remove marks. That may have been doen to this barrrel. Rick B

The magazine is a nice numbered and proofed Effurt. With one proof it should be post 1912 to 1918.

Nice gun, but I would have to say a redo for sure.
It looks like a wire wheel was used except around the proof marks and edges. They were most likely done by hand as they appear smoother than the rest of the finish. The forward toggle link pivot joints have no ware, and neither does the rear of the frame.
There are other inconsistencies also, minor by themselves but taken together with the redone barrel, I vote redo on the entire finish.

Vern

I'm not so sure. It looks original to me. The hold open pin is still in the white, I think. Hard to be sure from his photos. The straw shows aging which would be very difficult to reproduce. I think it's original except for the barrel. My thought would be that someone tried to remove an import mark and botched it up. Removing part of the barrel SN in the process.

Ron

I agree with Ron about the added holdopen pin being in the white, as is the center toggle axle retaining pin. I am much less sanguine about the apparent lack of fire blue on the breechblock pin and the sear spring.

I think that what we have here is a sterling demonstration that photo analysis cannot be the final arbiter of condition of a Luger.

--Dwight

I disagree as the barrel is not original and the photos clearly show this. I have yet to see two separate stampings be light together. Those photos are perfect in this area. For bluing,, no I agree it would be hard to tell. Rick B

"I disagree as the barrel is not original and the photos clearly show this."

Rick,

What indicates that the barrel is not original?

Ron

The finish is not original on the barrel. Sorry if I made it sound like i meant the actual barrel. Rick B

Dwight...

No agrument here...but it does give newcomers whom are being easily taken for $ 2000-4000 by the Luger selling "sharks" in the USA and elsewhere some things and areas to keep in mind when venturing out for that first collector purchase...

Some close-ups of this gun on G-B :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/no_halo_1.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/no_halo_2.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/front_sn.jpg

Pete,

Thanks for the close-ups. It does appear that it has been re-finished at some point. No "cratering" visible on the periphery of the numbers. Whoever did it, did a nice job of matching the hue of the original rust blue of the era.

Ron

Here is a 1914 example off the Simpsons LTD site...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/simpson_1914.jpg

Ron,

You may be right...I do not think this one offered on G-B was 100% refinished...just key areas that were "blended"...for a touch-up.

Many photos of the grip strap and area under the trigger plate show old finish and gunk and debris...

Same with the frame wells...does not seem like the gun was chemically cleaned in a bath.

Most of the strawed parts look old and aged...so maybe they were un-touched as well...

In my opinion there is no question that the gun has been refinished. The added hold-open's situation would indicate that not the whole gun but certainly the barrel and a few other parts.

When you say ""Also...no "halos" on the 2-digit numbers on the extractor and the toggle link."" what is Halos?
Alf

somebody write up a good explanation of what a halo is and when you see one (I know that rust blue aren't halo'd??) and I'll add it to the FAQ

OK: I am sure if I get this wrong someone will jump on me. Please feel free to correct me.

Halo
To encircle with or as if with a halo.

Halos are most often associated with the stamping of harden metal such as barrels, extractors, breach blocks and some pins.

As the stamp makes its indent the metal under the stamp must go somewhere, in more ductile metal it is absorbed over a large area but in harden metals this absorption is resisted and some of the metal is pushed up causing a slight rise or bump. After bluing this bump wares at an accelerated rate, as a result the bluing in this area takes on a lighter appearance resulting in a â??haloâ?�. A change in crystalline structure (hardening) may also occur adjacent to the stamping reducing the effectiveness of bluing agents and over time cause the same halo effect.

If a gun is refinished this slight bump/hardening is removed and a halo will not reform naturally.

You can simulate the difference between hard and soft metals by using a candle and pencil tip and varying the temperature of the candle.

Vern

Vern,

A good start, but headed in a slightly wrong direction.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Halo: Encircled with or as if with a halo.

Halo is an effect seen associated with the stamping of blued steel after the bluing has been applied.

Compression of the steel surrounding the stamping, possibly changing its crystalline structure, alters the appearance of the bluing of the affected steel, making it appear lighter and "washed out".

Sometimes the steel at the edges of the stamp is displaced upward.

Halo is one indicator of authenticity of finish on a Luger pistol. Certain markings are known to have been applied after the blue, and these marks usually will display halo. If a gun is refinished, the area of compressed steel will accept bluing as any other steel, and the halo will be eliminated. Any steel displacement will be smoothed out in the steel preparation process.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would be interesting to see an actual metallurgical explanation of the phenomenon.

--Dwight

Thanks Dwight!

Understanding what causes it and understanding Lugers--thats two different things:)

Now I know; don't you just love learning new things ;)

Now if I can just get a grasp on magazines and holsters--naaaaa that may take a while!

Vern

Dwight,
I don't mean to sound nitpicky, but the metal under the halo is stretched. It was flat until the stamp made it bulge upward. The curvature of the metal that was once flat has more surface area. This makes the blue thinner and a lighter color. The metal inside the stamp is compressed, which is why the blue stays there.
Mike C.

Thank You Boys for the information. Now all I have to do check all my Lugers :-).
And is there any list that indicated what was stamped before and after blueing?
Thanks again
Alf

Mike,

Nitpick away. My observation is that the amount of metal which is displaced upward is very small, compared to the area of halo. The halo varies a lot, and I have observed halo which, in area, is two or three times the area of the actual stamp--far beyond what might be expected to be accounted for by localized upwelling.

I reiterate my desire to see a metallurgical explanation of the phenomenon. It would also be interesting to see a comparison between compression and expansion of blued metal.

Alfred,

There is no single list. I think the best compendium, at least for German military Lugers, is found Jan Still's series of books.

In general, most original Luger markings--receiver marks, inspector stamps, serial numbers, worker's marks--are stamped before bluing. This is the same for military, contract, and commercial Lugers. Most barrel proofs, serial numbers, and caliber marks (but not inspector stamps) are stamped after the blue. Some are not, and the serial numbers on model 1900 Luger barrels do not exhibit halo even though stamped after blue. GERMANY export marks are stamped after blue.

Frankly, the before/after blue stamping on Lugers is quite variable. There are other kinds of stamps I have not mentioned, and they may be stamped before or after blue, depending on many circumstances. There have been many discussions on these Forums regarding marking halos, and whether the presence or absence of halo on specific markings on specific guns is proper or not.

--Dwight

Dwight, thank you for your detailed explaination. It seems that the subjest is very open one, and there are no hard rules. I tried to establish some Halos on my Lugers, but to the untrained eye it is not easy, at least if not one can compare with a very obvious halo. Maybe in time somebody will post good photos of these halos so we can see what they look like.
Anyway, thank you all again for another useful information.
Alf.

Some "halo" photos previously posted on the forums :


http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/halo_copy1.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...with_halos.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ug_47927_1.jpg

Dwight,

Regarding your comment of :

" GERMANY export marks are stamped after blue. "

This discussion thread ran over on Jan Still's gun boards. Some folks tended to think that on some AE's, the Germany stamping is done before bluing...both M1900 and M1906 AE were in the discussion...

I think the "Germany" should display halo (i.e. like you said, stamped after bluing...). But maybe both conditions are right and one needs to look for signs of a rework on a gun with a no-halo Germany stamp or look for signs of original finish on such a gun.

Here is that link :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11003

Pete,

Thanks for posting the pics. I recall the gunboards discussion, it was pretty inconclusive. My point to Alfred was to stress that that there are many exceptions to the expected observation of halo--the GERMANY stamp is one of the more striking--and that absence of expected halo, or presence of halo where it is not expected, while requiring a closer look, sometimes is authentically noted.

An interesting observation, which I have seen before and think meaningful, is the halo exhibited by the witness mark on sn 47927.

--Dwight

Dwight,

Suspected that one would stir your blood...;)

Some other halos photos posted over on Jan Still's gun boards in the past :

http://luger.gunboards.com/uploaded/...20arty%201.jpg

http://luger.gunboards.com/uploaded/...rty%20halo.jpg

http://luger.gunboards.com/uploaded/...20arty%202.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...nk/salter2.jpg


http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...nk/salter1.jpg

I have been researching the cause of the halo, there are some really complicated things going on, I have yet to find a simple explanation to post on the board.
For those of you interested in the technical writings do a search for (indentation testing).

Basically you have a flow of metal away from the stamp site; some is directly away from the stamp (downward) and the rest flows upward and outward from the stamp. It is the flow upward that we see as a small bump but itâ??s the outward movement that accounts for the greater area. Much of this occurs on the surface. Here we see surface cracking, under a microscope this would appear as small folds of metal, this makes since as the additional metal must go somewhere. The surface treatment (bluing) will also be cracked as this uprising and folding takes place, this is what we see as a halo.

The candle and pencil tip is a great example; you see exactly what is happening.

Vern

WOW, that is some info, I can see it on my guns now . thanks guys
Alf

Vern,

Can you supply a link?

--Dwight

Two more show & tell photos :


A M1908 Navy Luger...that Joe Salter had for sale some time back :


http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...navy_1139g.jpg

And this next photo is for you, Vern...;)

BUG proofs on a Borchardt pistol that show strong halo...gun was obviously refinished and the mechanic thought to "add" halos back on...looks like with some micro-sand-blasting tool...

(Ron Wood and other guys that know Borchardts have stated in the past that you should never see halo on the BUG proofs on Borchardts...)

Gun was on a previous RIA auction.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...roof_halos.jpg

So, shall I take it that if there is no Halos present, it is a reblue?
Al

Alfred, the presence or absence of a halo depends on the model of pistol and the manufacturing process followed at the time. A halo will appear on Imperial Lugers in some places where it does not appear on later Lugers. A careful study of what is expected can be very useful in determining the originality of a finish.

Here is a halo around a Germany export marking on a 1920 alphabet Luger
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hwa1920alphap.jpg

[The following two images compare a 1918 Imperial P08 to a reblued 1915 Imperial P08. This example is somewhat extreme but immediately shows the differences:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...halo_copy1.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...halo_copy1.jpg

A shot of the reciever halo on the 1918. This is a stamping done after the parts were blued.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...halo_copy1.jpg

The 1914 Mauser was stamped on top of the barrel prior to polishing and bluing; no halo is present, but it is not expected:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hwa1914_copy1.jpg

Halos may be observed on unblued parts. It is the mechanical polishing that removes the metal distortion that causes a halo.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hwakeyhalo

A picture from one of the technical writings, most just show formulas, they use various terms and not every article uses the same ones. Things like â??Pile-upâ?� â??Radial surface crackingâ?� and Longitudinal surface crackingâ?�.


Vern

Thank you again Heinz and LugerVern. it is good to know as much as possible, which make my hobby more interesting.
Alf

I'd like to clarify my earlier statement concerning (stretched) as apposed to (compressed) surface metal under the halo.
The best way for me to explain my point is to compare the suface metal to the bellows of an accordion. When it is compressed, the pliable material on the top of each fold is stretched, similar to the skin on top of your knuckles when you bend your fingers. Vern noted the terms, radial surface cracking and longitudinal suface cracking. A crack would indicate a separation of metal which was pulled apart. These cracks will only occur at the crest of a bulge or "pile-up". What you end up with is alternating compression and expansion of a very thin layer of metal on the surface. ALL other metal affected by the stamp will be in a compressed state.
Thanks for your indulgence. Now I feel better... unless I'm wrong. :eek:
Mike C.