To Shoot, or not to shoot? THAT is the question
 

Gentlemen,
In reading the posts in this and other forums, I see that a great many collectors would be positively aghast at the thought of "firing" their Lugers.
I can certainly see taking great pains to be very careful with a highly prized and very valuable Luger, but I can't see NEVER shooting it. Certainly the great average of everyday Lugers. I might not be inclined to shoot a truely "one of a kind" or even "one of 1000" type specimen worth in excess of $50,000 or more...Maybe if I had a Luger worth more than what I paid for mine, which was exactly what I got for the 1980 Yamaha YZ465G vintage dirt bike I sold to get it, I may be more inclined against shooting it.
I can easily understand having an "everyday" shooter, and plan on getting one, but even after I have a nice, low value shooter, I can still see taking a nice Luger carefully out to the range for a few rounds now and again. Probably on the scale of a magazine or two every six months to a year...maybe less. Maybe (though unlikely) more.
Having owned and fired numerous firearms for the last 30 years, it certainly seems to me that the greatest harm a pistol might endure is not while shooting it, but either the act of holstering and unholstering it, or the act of carelessly carrying it "in the field". Those and poor maintenance (rust from fingerprints, use of corrosive ammo, etc.) seem to be much greater a bain than firing a few dozen cartridges in a controlled range environment in my experiance.
These are weapons of war, designed and created to be shot thousands of times.
While I understand I am only the current custodian of a piece of history, I intend to shoot mine, that it may be fully enjoyed by someone who appreciates its whole value before the inevitable day when our American pistols have to be chopped and rendered paperweights like our poor cohorts in the UK have had to do.
Having said this, how many of you feel the same way, and how many have your hands up to your mouths right now?
How many shoot your nice Lugers once in a while, versus simply keeping them underglass in a climate controlled environment like old stamps?
Let me assure you, I in no way mean any disrespect to either breed of collector, I am simply curious as to whether I am an abomination or not.
I shoot my firearms. Use is not abuse.
I would also dare to say that it is inevitably more likely any blue wear any of my firearms sustain will probably be due to too much cleaning versus too much shooting. I am a former Marine, and was "educated" early on about firearms maintenence and frequent and diligent cleaning.
Just curious, where do you fit in?

I have a Russian captured mismatched Luger that I use for a shooter. I have however, shot original pistols and will probably continue to do so every once in a while. I shot several boxes through my artillery because that was one I just had to try out. The only Lugers I have that I have not fired are my byf 42 that is in 95 percent condition and my NIB Mauser/Interarms Parabellum.

I was in the army and during unit armorer training they said more guns are ruined by cleaning than shooting.

That said, if you own a $2500 collectable and you break a part that is numbered, you are screwed and have lowered your collectable to a shooter (depending on the part and to whom the prospective collector you are trying to sell to).

So, I have "shooters" and I have collectables. If you want only shooters, then buy shooters. Although if you are willing to take the chance with your collectables, well, if/when they break, then take your chances. I think the chance of breaking a numbered part is slim, but personally it is so much easier to buy a shooter and shoot it, then one of my Simson's or other lugers...


Ed

PS: This subject has been brought up before, which is okay, and you can see what others previosuly said on this subject, to include a "poll" on what parts have broken in your lugers.

Zamo, Your arguments sound appealing untill you are one day at the range and find your very valuble Luger (Ed is on the low side for many pistols) turned into junk and it's value cut in half by such careless nonchelance not to mention naivete.
Of course it's your money and you can spend it as you like.
Myself, I find I have to stretch the household budget for a $5000 dollar pistol. It would be the height of stupidity for me to shoot a mint Imperial Navy or Artillery when I get the same experience from a parts shooter Navy & Artillery.
How anyone could make the argument that it's OK to risk an $8000 dollar pistol for a few rounds a couple times a year is beyond me.
Even if it were a thousand dollar all matching pistol..why?
If you think numbered parts don't break I have some news..they do and they will.
Like a motorcycle accident or an accidental discharge..it's not a matter of if, but when.
Please explain why it would be important to shoot an expensive collectable pistol instead of a shooter? This I would like to know...Jerry Burney

I have found that when I have the urge to shoot one of my beauties, I first swap out the toggle train for a pieced together one, get a aftermarket mag and then bang away.

Afterwards, several days of cleaning.

I seldom act on this urge.

Tom A

The owner of those old stamps could use them to mail a letter. Instead they are under glass in a climate controlled environment. Why? Because that is what the owner chooses to do with them.

As for me, when you have the kind of luck I do, I shoot a shooter.

I've shot my collectable Lugers once (one full mag.) each, and may never shoot them again. I guess I feel the need to know that they function properly. I have a mismatched shooter I can enjoy shooting as much as I want.
Mike C.

I have a 1914 Erfurt Artillery Luger that I like to shoot. I put a 1st Model snail drum in it and with the buttstock/holster attached, I plug away. Why? Because I can. There's probably some high-end collectors that would cring at hearing/seeing that but I get to enjoy something they won't do - shoot that old pistol. But I do understand the concept of preserving ultra-rare pieces, and as a teacher and novice student of history I support it.

There were about 25,000 1914 erfurts made if I remember correctly. My 1914 erfurt artillery has been reblued, and it is my artillery shooter also.

One thing I have been amazed at in my many visits with collectors, out of personally going to probably 20 members houses, 95% are what I would consider average joes, i.e. they are working men, unsure if you would consider them high-end collectors.


Ed

Guess I'm luckier than most in a way, I have about 6 "shooters" so see no need to shoot my "collectors".

Here's my take on this, boys, and some of you will need to change your underwear after reading this, of that there is no doubt.

Somewhere over in the northern part of the USA is a gentleman who now has my Colt .45 collection - escapees from the Great Betrayal in 1997 when those ofus on the Big Island lost all our handguns.

I guess by your standards that they hold little attraction to any American collector, but here they are, listed for your interest -

Singer Sewing Machine Co - near mint - the first handgun I ever shot, age 6.

Union Switch and Signal - near-mint - plus US Army holster

US Navy model of 1914 - near-mint all-matching plus holster

US Army model of 1917 - marked on frame LML with a centre punch - but all matching

Remington-Rand Corp. - 90%

Colt .22 Ace - as near mint as makes no difference.

Over my lifetime, until they left my possession for ever, every one of these pistols had the Almighty bejasus shot out of them with service hardball. On one occasion my dad and I actually shot over 1000 rounds out of the Singer and the Navy in a single day, helping a friend to get rid of his suddenly illegal ammunition - he had been 'done' for DUI for the third time and lost his firearms certificate as a result.

If it is yours, you go ahead and do what you like with them, when you are gone, you really won't care - there are no ranges in the afterlife.

tac

Greetings, Gentlemen,

This is one thing tacfoley and I agree on.

I only have one Luger, all matching but the extractor. My wife has a Stoeger stainless 6" Luger. We shoot both without any reservation.

My personal niche is collecting and restoring very early, large caliber, centerfire revolvers. Most have required extensive work to return them to 100% mechanical soundness. Almost all have required making dedicated loading tools and custom bullet molds. Oldest is 1854 Lefaucheux that was converted at sometime during it's life to fire centerfire as well as pinfire cartridges. S/N places it well before the Civil War.

Some are very rare, with only a handful still in existence. Bringing them back to life and shooting them is as important to me as collecting them in the first place. The thrill and enjoyment of shooting a piece of history, 100 or 150 years old, is beyond description.

I did break one of my most rare and expensive revolvers during the first firing session, but it is repaired now and no one can tell the difference. I don't think the value has changed much because many of these old guns were repaired from time to time to keep them in service.

I am in my 70's and not in the best of health. I just hope when I am gone , my wife will see to it that my collection goes to someone that will appreciate the love and care that I have put into it, and continue shooting them, one and all.

Just my 2 cents.

Shooting pistols such as the ones Tac lists and Ralph as well is not as dangerous as shooting Lugers where most parts are numbered.

I only have one Luger, all matching but the extractor. There is a reason why the extractor is no longer matching. It broke! These parts are quite fragile actually.

Smoke em if you got em boys but when their gone their gone....

Jerry Burney

I never had a .45 I didn't shoot... I loved them guns to bits. Not literally, though ;)

tac

When I look at my fine and completely matching 1915 DWM P08 number 48 l, I am glad I fired before I realized just how pristine it is, and would be very reluctant to risk that again. The gun is in that amazing condition now because it has been kept from the normal usage and wear that would have other wise reduced it to a shooter long ago. Seems wasteful to now begin wearing out something that has survived over 90 years without showing its age, and firing a gun will eventually wear it out, every round a bit more.
A hundred years from now, there will be alot fewer collector grade near-mint Lugers than now, just for this reason. Hopefully not this one.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...5/DSC_2490.jpg

Shooting collectible lugers must be the decision of the owner. Personally I cannot afford to ruin a matching luger. That's why I have a couple shooters.The others I will save in the best condition I can until they are sold someday. No matter how well they were made they are all 65 years and older. Bill

For collector-grade pieces, I will fire 2-5 rounds through each before they go into my safe.

This is after I have cycled 6-8 dummy rounds through the gun.

I know the inherent risks...but I will not have a gun I keep that I know will not still do what the gun was intended for...

So far...no breakages...even with M1900's.

Not doing so...I would feel like I spent top-dollar on a "de-activated" pistol...

But for regular range-shooting, take your shooters out and work on your marksmanship. My shooters get 100-500 rounds each year...

If I own it--- It will be fired.
I don't collect anything rare, I acquire shooters.

What is the difference in shooting your Luger or driving an old classic car.You only live once and you might as well live it the way you see fit.

there is a big difference in how the luger collecting community views it. If I wreck my 66 mustang, I can put on a new hood, new bumper and paint it, and its still worth $10k (not that mine is in good shape right now). But with a luger, you break a major numbered part and the value of say a $3500 navy luger is now less than $1000... (and to many collectors, ANY numbered part)...

I can't afford that to happen. It is why I have $500 - $800 shooter lugers, i break a part, its still a $500 or $800 shooter luger...

If a person wrecks a midyear-vette or Shellby mustand ,It is going to cost him thousands and thousands of dollars and an original painted classic is worth thousands more than a repaint.It your Luger and I don't care if you drive nails with it by using it as a hammer or shooting.The million dollar 45 Luger was shot so that says it all.

Gentlemen, all you guys who advocate shooting $3000-10000 dollar Lugers have come up with nothing more than bland platitudes..it yours, do what you want blah blah blah. That's a no brainer.

I want to know WHY you would prefer to shoot say a $6500 all matching Imperial Navy rather than one JUST like it with mismatched parts, same caliber etc. costing say..$1000.

Personally, I don't think anyone can really dig deep and answer this. Because the answer is always going to be this..There is NO DIFFERENCE.

If you choose to shoot a $6500 dollar Imperial Navy and risk it's total destruction by breaking a numbered part you are not only foolish but a very poor caretaker of historical artifacts left in your care.
Yes, yes..I know you paid for it etc but what has that got to do with caretaking such a rare and valuble piece of history?

Would you buy a Panda, shoot it and eat it?

Jerry Burney

I would shoot the panda and fight for the bones if I was hungry enough.Why buy a Van Gogh for a 100 million when a reproduction that looks just like it for ???.One more thing and I am done.$5000.-10000. won,t even come close to buying a new car.Today it's not that much money.So lock that Luger up and throw away the key.

Tim, Apples and oranges.'' $5000.-10000. won,t even come close to buying a new car.Today it's not that much money.So lock that Luger up and throw away the key.''
A $40,000 new car is rarely ruined by driving it around the block. BUT.. if you chanced blowing the engine every time you started it? It would be a different story.
Another thing...Thousands of new cars are rolling off assembly lines daily. They are insured. A new and better one can be bought .
Not so with say... an Imperial 06 Navy.

Not that much money? That attitude amongst most collectors who work for a living is pretty lame. I work long hard hours to provide for my Family and I gotta tell you, It takes me all year, sometimes longer to save 5 thousand AFTER TAX DOLLARS.

But, I see you nor anyone else can answer the question....

Weird....Jerry Burney


__________________

I wish I could say that 5-10 thousand is not much money. Must be an age difference here or something. An interesting discussion and also a very old one. If a $10000 luger is not much money I would probably shoot it also. , but to me thats a bundle. Bill

Like Jerry said, smoke'em if you got'em and to each his own. You only have one, sometimes short life and some folks will enjoy it by engulfing themselves in the artistic beauty and worksmanship of a pristine firearm; other folks enjoy it by reconstructing a time in history with firing a piece of history. And some fall somewhere in-between.

At any rate, it's nice to have a variety of enthusiasts to pick each other's brains on the weapons.

Greetings, Gentlemen,

I can understand why you wouldn't want to risk damaging an all matching, original finish Luger, when there are many shooter grade Lugers out there. I did not intend to suggest otherwise. I was just speaking for myself.

I guess my Artillery with mismatched extractor falls into shooter grade, but even if it was matched I would still fire it. There are still many Lugers roaming this earth, so my one specimen would not be missed by the collectors in the future. The enjoyment I experience firing the old girl is well worth the price it may cost.

I am a collector of a different persuasion. As an example: I spent five years looking for a decent 1860 Pidault & Cordier that I could restore and fire. In all that time, I had only heard of three examples. Two of them were unacceptable. It cost me 3k+, much more than I have in the Artillery.
There aren't enough of them available to have a shooter and keep a collectible. It is exciting to own the gun but almost orgasmic to actually shoot it. The first firing in almost a century and a half. There were less than one thousand sold to the northern forces during the Civil War. Each came with fifty cartridges. There were no replacement cartridges. Hardly any of the revolvers survived.

I have the need to shoot all of mine, But I know where your coming from and I respect your need to preserve your Lugers for future generations.

I thank you for your indulgence, and God bless.

When I started this thread, in my "careless nonchelance" and "naivete", (I'll hand it to you Jerry, I've never been accused of those traits before), I assumed there would be divergent oppinions on the issue, but I never suspected I'd be stirring quit this level of hornets nest.
I have resisted responding during this thread, because I really wanted to see how it shook out.
Mr. Burney has repeated his request for a "good reason" to shoot a valuable Luger. I can only speak for myself, but, as I started this tirade, I'll give it a straight from the heart answer.
There is no such thing as a valuable Luger. The true value of any and all Lugers is exactly the same as a shooter. Any inflated value is an artificial value created and perpetuated by a very small segment of the shooting community, namely "The Collecting Community", as you named it. Pistol values may climb ridiculously high within this "Community", but that does not mean that is the real value of an item, any more than my taking a rare and unmolested chicken sandwich and putting a $5000 price tag on it. Few indeed are the (fools) who will rush out and pay that price, yet once Chicken sandwich collecting takes off, more and more people will be hood winked into paying top dollar for the one with Kraft mayonaise instead of Miracle Whip, and Heaven help the collector whose sandwich has had a bite taken out of it, or whose crust has begun to peel...The value of the sandwich remains $1.49 to the great masses, and rather than paying $5000 for one, they will go next door and buy a burger for $2.49. Or maybe some Pizza...
Oh, I realize that for the six people who truly value that one of a kind, historically significant "all original" sandwich, the likes of which will never be offered again (After all, the particular bird carved for that sandwich has long since expired), it's scarcity and value will be high, and ever climb higher as they continue to expound and celebrate the merits of that one sandwich.
What was it P.T. Barnum said?
OK, Now that I've pissed off a few folks to a great extreme, and hopefully made a few chuckle, and even more hopefully made one or two pause and think about things, let me say that I do value History, I hold a B.A. in History, and have 70 some odd collectable firearms (only half of which I have ever shot), I think Mr. Burney's argument against shooting a collectable firearm is sane and valid.
It is also completely dull, boring, and not a formulae I plan on adopting.
Like it or not, there is a romance to old firearms, in particular the Luger. A "mystique".
If you ever saw the movie "Toy Story" you might know what I'm talking about (Maybe it was "Toy Story II?). "If" your Luger had a conscience, do you think it would like to be a shooter? Or a Safe Queen? I'm not saying a piece of metal is sentient, or has feelings or anything like that, but I am saying that each and every one of them is unique and should be "realized".
The story is the same as the beautiful prom queen who stands by the wall because everybody is afraid to ask her to dance...
Maybe these analogies don't ring true to you, but that's the best I can do as to "why" it's important to shoot them: It is what they were made for.
Shooting a Frankensteinian parts assemblage may very closely approximate shooting a pristine example, indeed, for all quantifiable purposes it is the same. However, it's that unquantifiable element that I am trying very hard, and very poorly to illustrate: It's not the same.
In the end, did you shoot Rommel's Luger, or "one just like it"?
When I started this thread, I never meant to suggest a significantly valuable piece should have the heck shot out of it, but as a few others have weighed in, one magazine does not a shooter make.
As to the risk of breaking parts, well, in 30 years of shooting, the only part I've ever broken was on a cheap $90 EAA .22 revolver. These things were designed to be fired. In COMBAT for crying out loud. I'm not saying parts don't break, but I think you are using that as an excuse. If these things were that brittle, few would have made it through two world wars "all matching". Granted I am simplifying things, that is my perogative. I know all about metal fatigue, and stress, and hairline cracks, and over powered cartridges, and what not.
You're right, in the end, it's the OWNERS call. I fully respect anyones decision not to shoot their pistols, for what ever reason. I believe I even said as much in my initial post. If I were into it enough to spend $6000 on a Navy Luger when it seems my family could have used the money better, or in an investment with a greater percentage of return, I might be reluctant to compromise it's value either. But then again, even while Luger prices have done some amazing skyrocketing, buying high is never a wise idea financially, and therefore I wonder if even those using that excuse aren't actually secumbing to the same "romance", "mystique", and "allure" that prompts some of us to want to shoot these grand ol' dames?
The only Luger I currently own cost me about $1600, and is not that impressive of a piece to a collecting grognard, but it's pretty neat to me. I have no intention of ever selling it, so it will always have the same value I spent on it to me. I have no interest in worrying about what shape it will be in in 100 years, as I can guarantee I won't be here to worry about it. I also have no intention of treating with any less admiration and dilligent care as I treat all my antique firearms. It will have a reasonably good chance of passing on to it's next owner in exactly the same shape it's in now, assuming it doesn't undergo one of these freakish breakages you reference, and if it should break, than it will be a shooter, I will get more entertainment out of it, and the next owner will too. I will be out maybe $800. That is a risk I am willing to take for one or maybe two magazines. If it seems extreme to you, might I suggest you never play poker with me, and find a nice quiet corner to cowardly while away your remaining years in. I will be out shooting.
PS:
I apologize if I have angered anyone with my ramblings, but that is how I feel...and you asked!

Zamo -

I do not think there is a "right" or "wrong" answer to your question about whether to shoot or not shoot a valuable Luger. It is a matter of personal preference and has a lot to do with the level of tolerence for risk that the individual shooter is willing to accept. If a shooter is not concerned about breaking a serially numbered part on a valuable Luger, they shoot it. However, there is nothing "wrong" with someone deciding that they do not want to risk breaking something on a valuable Luger by shooting it. And you can see elsewhere on this forum that someone has already done a survey of parts that have broken on Lugers. And it probably is true that if you break a serially numbered part on a valuable Luger, it probably will reduce its value by at least 50% or more.

But what about this statement that you make: "There is no such thing as a valuable Luger. The true value of any and all Lugers is exactly the same as a shooter."

The "true value" of anything is actually what someone is willing to pay for it. It makes no difference whether you collect antiques, or paintings, or coins. In every collecting activity, the value of an object is what the collectors are willing to pay for it. I personally would never pay a lot of money for an oil painting. But there are people out there who will pay huge sums for such paintings. It's not worth it to me, but it is worth it to them. And while the prices for old paintings may seem ridiculous to me, such prices do not seem ridiculous to the people who collect them. So I think it is important to recognize that in any collecting endeavor, it is the price that someone is willing to pay for an object that actually determines its value. In other words, as individuals, you and I do not determine what something is actually worth.

Some collectors have a higher tolerence for risk than others. So the decision whether to shoot or not to shoot is an individual choice. However, if any novice asks the question "Should I shoot it?" it is still better to error on the side of caution and let the novice know what risks are involved.

Mauser720 - Ron

Zamo, I agree and also I disagree with what you say, but this Over the top langauge directed towards an individual is unacceptable; I have visited many other forums where sniping and name calling exist and is acceptable.

It is NOT on this forum. :rtfm:

Everyone has the right to do whatever they want; but if a member starts to make unacceptable comments like that; they will not stay long.

I do not need further comments about free speech or right to talk; that doesn't exist on a private forum.

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