Reblue v original
 

The following are some hints on what to look for in a reblue versus and original finish.

First look for the patina, or slight variation in the finish and underrusting you would associate with a pistol over 80 years old.
This photo compares a reblued 1915 and an original 1918. Also note the edge of the barrel flange

This is another view of the frames, Note the sharpness of edges on the 1918 and the finish wear. Also the sharpness on the takedown lever

The side of the recievers also show pronounced difference. Note the halo on the 1918 numbers and the faded appearance of the 1915

Heinz,

Very nice comparison.

I would only like to add the existence of 'period reblues', done as part of refurbishing and/or repair programmes.

Also for our viewers: Note the difference between the strawing. The faded, black freckled straw on the upper frame is what you'd expect to see on a gun that hasn't been messed with. 'Out of the box straw' on a 70+ year old pistol is most likely to be a restraw.

The rear frame kickups should show the circular tool marks on almost all Imperial military Lugers. They are less prominent in early years, pre 1915, and become more prominent up through 1918. This is the 1915 reblue

This is the 1918 original finish

Thanks Gerben, you are of course correct.

Also be aware of bad photographs. Dealers are completely capable of taking good photographs

Does the 1915 look better here?

well done Heinz, I have made this a sticky.


Ed

Thanks Ed!

Hi All, Very interesting and informative. I have a question, does a blued main spring Hook indicates that the gun is blued?
Thank you All
Alf:)

A.Mifsin, I'm sure there are people here that has handeled a lot more main spring followers than me.. but those I have seen have looked reblued, even if the Luger was not a reblue.

If you mean the recoil spring guide inside the spring, these are usually blue in color... as a result of heat treatment and tempering... if you mean the L-shaped lever that the mainspring guide attaches to, I think that these are usually white from the factory on guns before 1937 and blue after that, but that is just a guess.

The piece I am referring to is, The Coupling Link. Page 3 No 2.4.2 in Jan C. Still Book : Imperial Lugers : Thanks .
Alf

Have not seen the coupling link anything but in the white. It may be somewhat discolored but not blued. Bill

Bill, I agree, but I am not sure, What I can say is that all reblued Lugers I have seen all had the coupling link blued, Lugers seen that have original blueing the link is in the white, but is this norm? :

Alf.

Alf In the luger world nothing seems to be normal. I just looked at the only reblue I own. Coupling link is blued. So I guess I have seen one after all. This is a 1939 so I looked at a original blue 1938 and 1941 both are in the white. So would guess it's a pretty good indicator of a reblue. Bill

Thanks Bill, I agree, untill sombody say otherwise.:cheers:
Alf

Alf, the 1915 above has an in the white connector link, but the reblue was a rust blue. Mine non reblued 1918 and commercial have white links

Heinz, it seems that it depends on who done the bluing, if the gun is striped and reblued then the link will be in the white, but if the bluing is an immersion type like the hot salt process, than the link will be blued also. I think.
In mid 1937 the hot salt immersion bluing process was used, but was the link included in this process or assembled after bluing?:confused:
Alf.

Here is one from 1937 with the coupling link blued. I have suspected
that the toggle train has been re blued. Is there a cut and dry rule on this?
Did some original finish lugers have blued coupling links?

Here's the photo.

Alf, There would be no reason for the toggle link to be assembled when the parts are dip blued at the factory. Bill Lyon indicated his 1939 and 1940 had links that were in the white.

Many gunsmiths doing rebluing do not know how to dissamble the Luger toggle apparently. Dipping the assembled toogle train in a bluing hot salt tank would NOT be a good practice.

Right you are, and since Bill's Lugers, the 1938 and the 1941 have their toggle link in the white I think that indicates that Lugers at Mauser were first blued then assembled, which why the toggle link is in the white.:)
As you said few know how to dissamble the toggle link of the luger that is why they dip it without dissamble it first, or because it is done by mass production as have been done by Russian armouries with captured Lugers.
Alf

Gentlefolk;

Please forgive the ravening ignorance, but... I have ravening ignorance.

I am well aware that a re-blued Luger has lost its collection value - I would not want to take my 1938 Mauer and have it refinished. Fair enough...

What I don't understand is why?

Presumably, the weapon would be stripped, cleaned, refinished and therefore protected to a far better extent than its current condition.

So while this makes sense to me, it is clearly incorrect. Could someone explain why old weapons should not be refurbished?

thx!

Don

Hi Don..!!

First - there is a difference between "reblued" and "restored".. When someone say "reblued" to me, I can only think of wavy buff marks, a hot dip in cold blue - and well, you know ;)

A "restoration" is a different story.. Very few can do a great restoration - making it look like it just left the factory...

However - as a collector - while "restorations" are far superior than "reblues" - it still is NOT the way it left the factory over 50 years ago..??

Sooo....... It really depends on what you want?? If you want a quick "fixer-upper" for an old tired out gal - yep - a reblue could do it..

If you want it to look like it left for the factory - then a restoration might be in your future??

However - if it is all original today - just worn and tired - I'd vote to leave her the way she is... Old and tired and original isn't so bad.. Ever seen an old woman with a poor facelift???

Yea - it's sort'a like that.. ;)

John

Hi John;

OK, very interesting, I appreciate your thoughts. Now, lets back up a bit...

Say, for example, a guy hass.... ummm... for example, a Mod. 28 Smith & Wesson - a .357 on a .44 frame. Let's also say, for argument's sake, that this was the first weapon this guy bought, and as other toys got into the chest, the poor S&W Mod. 28, once cherished, is now showing the signs of neglect. Just finish wear, no rust yet, but the blue is not lustrous... it looks like a weapon bought 30 years ago, and now lives life in a rug.

Not collectable (to my knowledge), must be a zillion out there, but a nice shooter, even if the stock grips were marginal and the 4" barrel was not the best choice for a .357.

In this context, what is your opinion about getting it .. . I guess the term is "refurbished". Cleaned up, buffed up, maybe the action smoothed a bit. A dye job to cover the bald spots....

Is the consensus here that _any_ weapon is best left in stock state?

thx!

Don

The Model 28 smith and wesson is not likely to be a collectible in your lifetime, or perhaps even your next generation heirs lifetime. It is a workhorse of a firearm and if you want it pretty by all means make it pretty. ALL Luger pistols are collectible pistols and the rules therefore can't be the same... whether a parts gun, or a pristine example... there are a limited number of Luger pistols and they aren't ever going to make any more that were made from 1898 to 1945. It is a finite number of guns and there are an ever increasing number of enthusiasts and collectors... unwarranted modifications will reduce collector value in almost all cases.

I think of it this way, a luger pistol is a historical 'weapon'
As is, let's say......a grenade.........which is a 'weapon' also
You wouldn't want to keep a live grenade in your collection, but rather, an 'inert' one, but just because the 'weapon' aspect has been taken away from it, doesn't fault all the history and authenticity from it. Just the same as a pistol, although its main 'weaponary' purpose has been taken away from it, it can still be a very fascinating piece. Just the way i look at it :)

John;

<ggg>
Yeah, the S&W Mod. 28 is a pretty blunt weapon... not a lot of elegance to it... goes "bang" well, however..

Went;

Yeah, interesting and valid approach, but I for one like machines that work. Olde Tyme motorcycles are amazing pieces of art and engineering, but if I go to a concours, I want to see the things fired up and ridden.

Just staring at 100-year-old carburetors doesn't do a lot for me. Absent a machine from its function, and all you have is formed metal.

Don

A firearm without the function it was designed for is likened to oh I don't know....

A human being without the inalienable right to self defense...

Sad state of affairs that someone has less rights as a human just because of where they live and a damn shame that a historic piece like a luger has to be wrecked just to be kept.

Yeah this is true in regards to both replies, i just like to look on the bright side i suppose, and am very lucky pistols arent banned here (yet?!) But it would still be good to have a functioning and strippable one, even not firing, to admire the enginuity behind it. A luger deac is better than no luger at all :D Anywho, i think we should keep (get the thread) back on topic :)

According to my observation (of course, it must have been observed by hundreds of collectors in the past), there was another type of reblue called "period reblue", probably done by government before a pistol was re-issued. Looks like the major difference between this type of reblue and modern professional restoration was (1) the gun was in relatively good shape before the process; (2) it's batch job and no sanding nor buffing performed, so some round corners, less than sharp edges (via normal usage in its past) were under gun blue.

Any other characteristics or additions?

It seems to me a '68 Camero is a good analogy. You could be looking at three or even four cars that in a photo all look exactly the same. One might have an entirely fiberglass body on a tubular steel frame. One might have been assembled from "original parts" but those of 20 or 30 different vehicles. One might have "never been touched" but had 250,000 miles put on it. One could have been put in storage when the owner went to VIet Nam and the family couldn't bear to part with it and it has been well preserved with 300 original miles....
I would love to have all four but what I would expect to pay would vary all over the map and my budget means I get to look at the photo....