Blue Dot load?
 

Years ago I read an artical about the loading for the P08. I think it was G&A but maybe not. It went on about presure curves and and energy to for clean operation in the P08. I saved the magazine and have spent the last two weeks going through my collection of G&A and ARM and can't find it. Anyone else remember this artical?

Cheers
MJ

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...k/VOLPO012.jpg

I have used Blue Dot powder extensively for .357 loads for years. I just dont see it being that good for a 9mm load. I dont think it burns all that clean either.

Blue Dot is my favorite powder for the 9mm. It burns fairly clean, provides excellent accuracy, and you can't double charge a case. It does have a bit more muzzle flash than other powders I've tried and doesn't meter quite as well as ball powders, but its' benefits far out weigh the increased muzzle flash. I have loaded tens of thousands of rounds of 9mmP ammo with Blue Dot, and haven't found anything that works as well for me over the years.... But that's just me, and everyone has thier own preferences........

Anyway, the two loads I use the most are:

115 grain Remington JHP with 7.5 Grains of Blue Dot loaded to an overall length of 1.120" . Velocity runs about 1,150 depending on a number of factors. (I also use 8.0 grains of Blue Dot with the same bullet and oal when I want a bit more velocity. 8.0 grains gives around 1,250 fps.)

124 grain Remington JHP with 7.5 Grains of Blue Dot loaded to an overall length of 1.120". I don't recall the velocity exactly (I'm at work and my reloading data is at home...), but I believe it is about 1,100 fps.

Both of these loads shoot quite well in my guns, and function my lugers 100% . Neither load is a maximum load. Please note that these loads are loaded to a bit longer overall length than many loads that are shown in reloading manuals. I have grown to favor the 124 grain load, but some of my guns shoot better with the 115 grain load. The 124 grain load shoots a bit higher than the 115, so you can change bullet weight to try match your guns sights.

I hope this is useful information.

JD

Well Blue Dot is more versatile than I thought. I must admit I have never reloaded a 9mm. Due to all the cheap 9mm ammo out their.

Dear MJ:

To each his own, but I prefer the medium burning powders in the 9mm.

As far as accuracy, IMR SR 4756 and Power Pistol win hands down, and I've been loading for the Luger for almost 30 years. Blue Dot will make the pistol function, but the above two powders will make it shoot accurately.

How accurately? Five or six out of eight touching at 25 meters.

Sieger

I remember reading an article on Blue Dot and its use in the 9mm. The writer refered to it as the "Champagne of 9mm Gunpowders". It is very versatile and I have come across a number of very accurate combinations with it. It also is outstanding in the 10mm Auto and .357 Magnum, as well as reduced loads for many rifle cartridges. Definitely worth having in the supply rack...

Blue Dot Loads
 

Hi:

Please share your accurate loads with us.

Sieger

I have several loads that were great, but three stood out over time. I've really grown fond of Remington's 102gr Golden Saber, made for the .380 ACP. With 10.4 grains of Blue Dot, Federals GM100M primer and a 1.065" OAL, my byf 42 shoots great!!! I also get great results with Winchester 115 grain HP loaded over 9.6 and 9.8 grains of Blue Dot, a Winchester WSP primer and an OAL 1.12". The 9.6 especially seems to perform well...

Johnny:

Both of your loads are way over maximum per several manuals I have checked!!!

100 gr. maximum is listed at 9.2 grs in the Hornady Manual

115 gr. maximum is listed at 8.9 grs in the Hornady Manual

Frankly, I'm surprised you and your Luger are still with us.

Sieger

I agree with Sieger, your loads are over max, and the 115 grain load is WAY over max!! I've loaded 8.8 grains of Blue Dot with a Hornady 115 grain bullet, and it produced about 1,350 fps out of a 4" barrel. It was a safe load, but rather abusive to the gun, and currently the max I load is 8.0 grains with a 115 grain bullet which doesn't beat the gun up as much and still produces 1,250 fps out of a 4" barrel. Even your 100 grain load, at that relatively short overall loaded length is over max and over reasonable pressure limits. I've loaded 100 grain bullets with heavy charges of Blue Dot, but only when loaded to a much longer overall length, which reduces pressures, and only to be fired in very strong, modern handguns. I wouldn't use the loads you listed in any handgun, let alone a vintage luger....

Hornady finally added Blue Dot. It is not listed in Volume 2 or 4. You are certainly limiting yourself staying with one manual. I use several and compare. Hornady is keeping the pressures well below 29,000 to protect people, mainly themselves. I've yet to even get to the top loads listed in other sources, and I'm showing no pressure signs. I chronographed my loads, measured at seven feet from the muzzle. The 10.2gr of Blue Dot pushing the 102gr Golden Saber produced an average velocity of 1323fps for 10 shots. As you can see that is quite a bit different from the 1350fps you got with a heavier bullet and less powder. I think it would be interesting to see why...

Johnny:

I referenced the 1990 addition of Loadbooks for the 9mm Luger

Your loads are well over the recomendations of:

Hornady
Nosler
Sierra
Speer
Lyman

Please reference your loading manual.

Sieger

I'm holding a Speer book. Here are two loads for Blue Dot with 100gr bullets. 10.2 and 9.2 grains. They list a 8.8gr load for their 125gr bullet. They list a max pressure 35,700cup which they stayed below, and an OAL with the 100gr bullet of 1.080", and 1.100" OAL for the 125gr bullet...

Blue Dot Max.!
 

Johnny:

From the Speer section of the 1990 Loadbook:

100 gr., Blue Dot, Max Load 9.3 grs at 1,285 fps

115 gr., Blue Dot, Max Load 8.9 grs at 1,249 fps

125 gr., Blue Dot, Max Load 8.3 grs at 1,259 fps

What year was your manual published?

Sieger

Rick W:

The manufacturers make a great effort to keep their commercial powders within published specifications on a continuous basis, year to year. Doing otherwise would be commercial suicide for them. Without this consistency, why bother publishing loading data for their products at all?

As to firearm to firearm variables, a little knowledge and common sense is required, and good judgement is to be exercised. I have assembled seemingly perfectly good lower-end loads that have pierced primers before in High Powered rifles, letting gas escape through the action. Try a face full of that once or twice and you will have a new appreciation for conservative, consistent, reloading procedures.

In the end, however, to each his or her own.

Sieger

Dear Tac:

With properly assembled loads and a good Luger, this is not only possible, but highly repeatable.

Some say the 9mm isn't accurate. Well, maybe not with ammo so hot that it flattens primers, etc.

Sieger

Luger Shooting
 

Tac:

No, its a two hand hold over a sand bag.

Best effort to date is 7 touching at 25 meters

Sieger

Re: Re: Luger Shooting
 

Dear Tac

If you really want to read about how Americans can shoot, I suggest reading the account of what happened to the Commanding General of the British Army invading Washington D.C. and the Port of Baltimore, Maryland during, what we call, the War of 1812.

The General was mortally wounded by one shot at 600 yards by an American Sniper, and this, with a smooth bore flintlock rifle.

You Brits may be pretty good with a shotgun, but Americans have, traditionally, been outstanding marksman with the rifle.

Sieger

Oh Steiger, you are treading on thin ice here.
The British prowess with the rifle is not to be trifled with, check both the international match records or the German experience against the .303 Enfield in the in the hands of Tommies in Flanders, 1914.

Also "smooth bore flintlock rifle" is a contradiction in terms although the expression "smooth rifle" is sometimes used for a rifle stocked and sighted smoothbore. The likelyhood is high that the gun in question was a .75 calibre (or larger) rifle bored gun designed for long range shooting with 48 inch and longer barrels and rifle sights and often wall mounted. Such a rifle is illustrated in George Shumway's Longrifles of North Carolina. That piece as a 90 calibre 7 groove barrel 54.7 inches long and weighs 30 pounds. It also has a swivel mount. Of interest is that rifle is now in the Tower of London collection.

I will jump back now as I 'spect that Tac or Ig will defend themselves.

Now... now guys play nice!

this "cross Atlantic" one up man ship does no one any good!

Yes, we Americans are a bit "quick on the trigger" We had to be to survive!

And we don't have thousands of years of history so we tend to make the most of what we have!

So get along, please!

Hay if you want to pick on someone, pick on me! Here I'll give you the ammunition; I am a Democrat the loves his right to own and carry a fire arm!

Have fun with that! and yes "smooth bore Rifle" is an oxymoron like "Military Intelligence' OOps more ammo!

Dear Tac:

I gave the appropriate reference, the War of 1812, and the appropriate campaign. Try reading the American history of the war, as historical accounts often differ.

As to your other remarks, I have no comment.

Sieger

Oh yes just to piss everyone off equally, tea is best in a bag and served over ice!

Here is a lead in to the appropriate references. I have some more information if anyone cares to private email me.
Legend has it that two sharpshooters, Daniel Wells and Henry McComas, made Ross their target. Whether they actually fired the shots will never be known. The boys fell almost immediately to British bullets. A monument immortalizes their valiantry. Carried to the rear, Ross died a few hours later.
http://www.bcplonline.org/info/histo...cohistory.html (Baltimore County Public Library

I would note that there is significant dispute as to who fired the shot and no reliable contemporary estimates of the distance that I have been able to find. Apparently the British reurn fire was as effective as the Americans.

Heinz:

Thank you for bringing some kindness to this discussion.

The next time you visit Baltimore, you might take a minute and stop by the municipal museum for some more details of this action. There is also a statue commemorating the action. The site you were kind enough to give us is a good summary, but does lack some detail.

The death of their General so demoralized and confused the British that they stoped their advance on the city, quite a prize lost.

Sieger

Thanks Sieger. I have been to that museum and it is a treasure. I am still awestruck by the original copy of Francis Scott Key's Star Spangled Banner that was hanging unobstrusively on the wall. However I shall go again to check out Wells and McComas when next in Baltimore.

I have been shooting and building flintlock rifles for 41 years and what they are capable of is pretty amazing.

PS we are all friends here although we may get a bit passionate

Dear Heinz:

I use the word "friend" sparingly. Perhaps the phrase "casual acquaintance" is more appropriate when discussing some.

I'm glad that someone with over 40 years of experience with building rifles from that period responded. You know, now days it seems like "everyone is an expert" on subjects that they know little or nothing about. For instance, I've been reloading and experimenting with the 9mm Luger for almost 30 years. I doubt, seriously, if some that have commented on the accuracy of the 9mm Luger have ever loaded an single cartridge for it.

I grew up in the Baltimore-Washington area, and had the pleasure of working in both cities on a professional basis. This area and the Commonwealth of Virginia, offer a wealth of colonial history to explore. My family received a land patent from the Commonwealth, for service in the Colonial Army, of 1,000 acres. I still have the original deed to the land.

Thanks again.

Sieger

Sieger,

I still remember my first encounter with shooting a luger (Back in the days when I had better eye sight...). A police officer friend that I shot with brought a luger to the range, along with his usual collection fo nice handguns. I knew nothing of lugers at that time, and I don't remember what exactly this one was, except that it was German military in about 85% condition and with a perfect bore. He handed me the gun and said "Here, try this." After a couple of magazines of ammo to get used to the trigger pull, he told me to try shooting at a 1" square black paster on his target at 25 yards. I put 5 rounds into that paster, with no round more than half off the paster. I was amazed. We spent the next hour in informal competition shooting at black 1" pasters at 25 yards (From a sandbag rest.), with almost all of the groups running at an inch or less. I had a great bit of fun with the luger that day... and it really opened my eyes too.

My friend would also occasionally shoot his department's quailification course with the luger just for fun, and he cleaned the course each time....

Ah, the good old days........

JD:

Lugers will shoot with the right loads and springs!!!

Sieger

JD,

Thanks for sharing your load data. I have be working up a load for my luger and I think I have a winner when trying to duplictae one of your loads. I tried 8.0 gr Blue Dot, CCI small Pistol Primer, Sierra match grade 115 FMJ, in a Remington case. The OAL varried between 1.160 and 1.170 OAL on these loads. I have since tightened the OAL up to +/- 0.002.

This is 8 rounds benched at about 20 paced yards.

Chris

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/p1010067.jpg

Shadow,

Very nice group!!!! It is surprising how well lugers can shoot with ammo they like.

Good shooting!!!!!

Good Group
 

Hi:

Yes, this is a typical group with a well designed load!

The Lugers are extremely accurate, when properly loaded.

Sieger

PS: I'll be trying out his load on my next trip to the range.

Just a couple of observations about Blue Dot. It is a temperature sensitive powder in that loads developed in cold weather will operate at higher pressures in the heat of summer. This based on case/primer observations and just the feel of the load. Not very scientific I know but I have 30 years of reloading experience to go along with it.

Blue Dot also has one hell of a report and flash when nearing a max load in the 9.

I also use Blue Dot in the .357 and 44 mags, as well as the 45 ACP. Accuracy in all the above calibers was excellent.

With all that being said my most frequently used 9mm load is 6 grains of Unique over anything weighing 115 grains.

By the way Shadow that is some serious shooting!

Hi:

This is a little on the hot side.

How accurate is this load?

Sieger

That load is quite accurate putting full magazines from a Glock 17 with a Bar Sto barrel into 2 inches offhand at 50 feet. It shoots equally well in a Sig 228. I've had the powder charge as high as 6.5 of Unique which was worked up to and falls within the parameters of some of my reloading manuals.

I have not run this load through a Luger {still new to the gun!} but plan to next time I'm out. The cases give no indication of pressure in my particular guns.

I've stayed out of this discussion so far since I've never loaded anything with Blue Dot. The reason is that a ladies champion shooter's husband owned a gunshop in OKC back in the 1970's when I lived in the area. He stated that he loaded her .357 ammo with Blue Dot in the winter, but switched off as the weather warmed due to pressure problems. I figured I didn't want to take a chance. And it did get really hot in Oklahoma.

If you are looking at who were the better long range marksmen on the battlefield in WWI, that honor goes to the US Marines attached to the AEF in Belleau Wood in 1917. The French in their usual fashion wanted to fall back as they sighted the Germans at 1500 yards advancing. The US Marine Col., when asked if they would follow the retreat said "Retreat, hell we just got here!" Shortly thereafter US Marines armed exclusivley with 1903 Springfield rifles were taking out Huns at 700 and even 850 yards which effectively stopped the German advance in short order. The French and British observers were stunned to say the least as it was thought that this distance was far beyond the effective range of any rifle. The British were said to have the best "Battle Rifle", the Germans had the best "Hunting Rifle" and the Americans had the best "Target Rifle." Hitting the target is the name of the game in war.

Hi:

Belleau must not have been much of a "woods" if you could get a straight shot at 700 to 850 yards at a moving target.

My father qualified as an "Expert Rifleman", at 1,000 yards, in 1943 with an "as issued" M-1. He was in the Infantry, later Airborne.

Sieger

It was the name of a French game preserve that had both woods and open field. German artillery opened it up even more and the allies knew they would follow with an infantry assault. The Germans thought they could advance from such a distance unmolested in the open...they figured wrong and paid the price with heavy casualties. The M1 Garand was and still is a great semi-auto heavy battle rifle that could be very accurate at long range.

I wonder just what was wrong with a night assalt?

Just how many months was the U.S. involved in WWI in the first place?

Sieger

No night vision and in WWI lots of friendly fire occured on both sides at night. Night time was also hazardous because it was a favorite time for both sides to use artillery. The US was involved for about 18 months in WWI.