Problem in reassembly of S/42 Luger
 

I have a "Russian dipper". The toggle pin and firing pin cluster are out of the barrel group. At present I am trying to install the stripped barrel assembly onto the frame. My problem is that it goes in most of the way, but it meets stiff resistance and stops about 1.5 inches from where it should go. I see nothing preventing the barrel to go in all the way.

Obvious help needed!

Hoyt Weathers

Hoyt

I will venture a guess, remove your magazine this will allow the hold open to drop down and the upper assembly should slide all the way in.

Make sure your take down lever is in the take down position

Make sure your safety is in the off position


Let us know if this doesn't work or if I miss under stood your question?

Vern

Hello Vern,

Thank you for your informative reply.

I am about to go to bed now (Central time). I will print your reply, follow your suggestions point by point tomorrow, and get back to you ASAP with results.

Regards,
Hoyt

Hello Vern,

For a preamble of the present situation, look above to my first posting in this thread.
As a recap, there is nothing removable remaining in the barrel group except the front sight. In the frame group there is only the safety lever, which is in the up position, and the recoil spring with the rod inside it which are in their appropriate positions.
Since this Luger is a "Russian dipper", it is easy to see where the binding is on both the barrel group and the frame group since the dip blue is gone in places where the binding occurs. I used my Dremel with a suitable grinding wheel to remove steel in those areas. That effort did not affect the binding. Not even a smidgen.

What I am left with are two paper weights.

Regards,
Hoyt

Need pictures at this point.
Place the two parts together to the point of binding-take picture
then take pictures of parts apart showing internal surfaces.

You didnâ??t say if you had a chance to fire your gun before the problem started, also was there issues with disassembly?

Please donâ??t remove anymore metal before you show the gun pictures to the forum members!

Vern

Unless you find out exactly what the problem is, a few more episodes with the Dremel tool will definitely produce paper weight material. In your email correspondence with me, you indicated that with the toggle train in the receiver the assembly only lacked 3/8" of going together. With the toggle train removed, now it lacks an inch and a half! I can make no sense of such a scenario at all. I have sat down with one of my Lugers and tried to replicate or even guess as to how this can happen, but have come up empty. Perhaps pictures will be enlightening.

Hello Ron,
I looked at the bottom of the barrel group and saw three bright areas. One of them was about where the barrel was binding. I used my Dremel tool with a grinder fob and dressed off those 3 areas.
I then tried to put the barrel back into the frame. It stop where it did before. No improvement.

I have good digital cameras. I also have a digital satellite internet dish.

If you have a high speed internet connection, I can send those pictures to you with no problem.

If you have a suitable high speed internet conection, I request that you send a P.M to me.

That will allow me to send the pictures directly to you and not go through the present arrangement which will require down-sizing. I prefer not to do that if I can avoid it.

My e-mail address is: ahab@hiwaay.net

I hope the above address is clickable. It is a copy and paste of my internet address from my address book.

I suggest that we go with PM's from this point forward.

Regards,
Hoyt

I had / have a C96 bolo, it shot fine, then I took it apart and could not get it together. I keep it now as a lesson that less is best when trying to "fix" something that did not need fixing...

Unless you had to force it apart, it was together when you got it? And you didn't have to tap it apart?


ed

Hoyt,
I have always sent you emails directly, not through the forum, so you already have my email address unless you have deleted my last 3 messages, and the last two messages you sent were from the address you posted above. I have high speed cable Internet access so sending pics should be no problem. If you have deleted my emails, let me know and I will send you another.
Ed's question is a good one. When you got your Luger, did you have to force it apart?

Hoyt

Please look at your receiver lug: burs and flatting sometime form and even though the gun comes apart pretty easily it can be hard to put back together again because the receiver and frame are not completely aligned until fully assembled. It is not real obvious unless youâ??re looking for it. Happen to me a couple of times.

Good luck!

Vern

Hello Hoyt,
One of the places with the tightest tolerances, is the rear part where the rear toggle link meets the frame. If you have been grinding on the 'slots' you see in the frame, you are probably looking at a lot of fitting on several places to make it go back together. Depending on the depth of the grinding, you may even end up having to grind the rear toggle link (though, very little could be done there, the 'cut' needs to stay sharp).
I hope this is not the case.. and wish you good luck getting it back together!

Btw. I quess you know that the S-lever needs to be in the right place, not in the magazine well or behind the spring notch.

At a closer read trough.. I notice that you had removed everything from the upper part. So my previous post was missing the taget..
..takedown lever is down?

To all those above who replied:

At this point, the take down lever is not installed in the frame.

Hoyt

Hoyt, I think that Vern may be on the right track. As you slide the barrelled reciever into the frame, check to see if the receiver lug (under the chamber araa) is hitting the front of the frame as it goes in. Perhaps, rather than grinding on your parts, a bit of lapping with some valve grinding compound, would be less destructive. TH

Ehm, I take it you know that for correct placement of the receiver onto the frame that the connecting link should point to the rear while sliding the receiver onto the frame (best practice is to hold the frame and receiver upside down), then make sure that the link drops in to connect to the main spring assembly (flip the frame over and make sure the link drops in).

Just thought I'd mention this to rule it out.

To all repliers:

I have shot one or two magazines of ammo through this pistol.

I had the "bright" idea of removing some of the small parts which I thought needed to have the Russian dip blue removed. Then I tried to re-straw them, but they turned out kind of a bright Peacock blue. They look good that way! I think my oven temperature of 500 degrees F. was too high.

If I recall correctly, it was when I tried to put the parts back together that the binding first happened. The barrel group was almost into battery when it stuck the first time about 1/2 inch from being in battery. Now here is where I believe that I flubbed up big time.
I used a punch and a steel hammer to pound it loose. It finally did come loose and off the frame.
That may have, and probably did, warp the frame rails and/or the barrel rails.

Hoyt

Ok, you beat your gun with a steal hammer; generally not a good idea, but there is a good chance youâ??re still dealing with the original problem.
I truly believe your barrel lug is deformed and you aggravated the situation by hammering on your gun.

Can you send me a picture of your barrel lug, a picture of your lower receiver in the area where the barrel lug passes through the frame (front frame well)?

Then put the two parts together turn them upside down and take a picture of the barrel lug in its most rearward position (first binding)

vern_t_2000@yahoo.com

Take a steal ruler and place it inside the rails of your guns frame both sides and upper receiver both side, if it lays flat the full distance, chances are you didnâ??t warp the gun.

You said you used a punch, at what point on the gun did you place the tip?
Did you hammer directly on the guns frame or receiver or just on the punch?

Do you have a set of calipers? Not absolutely required but they would help.

Donâ??t give up just yet! :)

Vern

To Lugervern:

I have had a very serious personal family problem late today involving one of my three daughters. I will not get into that here because this is not the place to do so. Until the date and time of this message, I have not turned on my computer.

I will get back to the suggestions you made. I hope that will be on Wednesday, Inshallah.
It could be a day later.

When it first met resistance in going into battery, I did pound on the right rear of the barrel group directly with a punch and a steel hammer. That may have caused it to wind up the way it is now.

I do have a digital caliper. I will measure everything I can with them, record all measurements, and report back the results in another reply.

Regards,
Hoyt Weathers

Hoyt, my thoughts and prayers go to you. Take care of family and best to you,


ed

Hoyt, Sounds like your time would be best served, sending your luger to a gunsmith specalizing in these, or selling it to me cheap, as is, for parts. TH

To Lugerdoc: I do not know of a good gunsmith experienced in Lugers.
If you can suggest one of the best, please send me a PM with the info.

ahab@hiwaay.net

Regards,
Hoyt Weathers

To all Repliers:

I have not yet taken the pictures some of you want to see. Inshallah, I will try to do that today.

I have looked closely at the barrel lug and the front of the frame where the barrel lug should go through but it does not get that far back on the frame before the rearward movement begins to exhibit resistance. I plan to take several pictures of both the barrel lug and the notch on the front end of the frame where the barrel lug should go. As I said the barrel never gets that far back.

Neither of those parts show any bare or bright areas where the Russian dip blue is affected. They are as black as the Ace of Spades on all surfaces.

I intend to take a steel ruler and measure for flatness all along the top of the receiver. With the receiver clamped in a vice, I will level it. Then I will check from one end of the frame to the other end with the level for any movement of the bubble in the level.

It is my present opinion that there was a problem even before I used brute force to get the barrel group out of the frame. Otherwise, why did the barrel group stick in the first place?

My conclusion, at this time, is that my use of brute force had nothing to do with the sticking problem.

Regards to "All in this house"

Hoyt Weathers

Hoyt

Look for a bur on the right of your upper receiver, where you used your punch, this has expanded the metal in that area, this is most likely now hanging up on your lower frame ( ears) .
Explaining why itâ??s come to a dead stop and wonâ??t budge any further.

This is a different issue than your first one, but should be easily fixed.

Vern

Hello Vern.

I trust you opinion and I appreciate you comments. However, AFAIK, I have only one problem with the Luger. It has not changed whatsoever. (there may be other problems of which I am not aware.)The barrel group hangs up about one inch or so into the front of the frame.
Something is causing this to happen. I just do now know what that is.

As for your "should be easily fixed", just suggest how should I do that.

Regards,
Hoyt Weathers

Hoyt

Your description of what is going on with your gun keeps changing, it makes it impossible to trouble shoot. Some things that were said: â??stops about 1.5 inches from where it should goâ?�
; â??assembly only lacked 3/8" of going togetherâ?� and now â??hangs up about one inch or so into the front of the frameâ?�. These describe completely different problems.

The fact that your gun was fully functional before disassembly gives hope, most things are in fact fixable, but I feel your not being totally honest with what has happen to your gun. Without pictures and with confusing statements no one is going to be able to help you.

At this point I default back to the other forum members.

Good Luck!

Vern

It really sounds as if the effort to re straw some of the parts has had quite a bit to do with the original problem. He states that after the re straw attempt, the pistol would go back to about 3/8ths of an inch before jamming up. He may have applied too much force to try to push the bbl.-receiver back into battery. After it became immovable he applied a hammer and punch(CRINGE) and now the major problem is it will not go anywhere near the original position. After the re straw effort, it sounds as if the receiver lug may have been hitting the take down lever?

To all Repliers:

If I stated things differently at different times, that was not intensional. Some of those distances were only estimates at that time based only on off-hand memory.

I now have my Electronic Digital Caliper and the Luger in my lap.

The distance of the barrel lug from the front of the frame where it (the barrel group)
first meets resistance = 0.455 inches or 11.55 mm. The barrel lug does not appear to have hit anything. There is not a mark on it.

It is my intent to measure everything I can and report the results. That will take some time to do correctly. Hang in here with me guys.

I do not have a Luger gunsmith anywhere near me as far as I know.

You guys are my only hope to get this worked out.

Since there is a message length maximum, I am concerned how to get the measurement info to you guys. I can do it one reading at a time (1 through ? ) to avoid that potential problem.

Your comments are most welcomed.

Regards,
Hoyt Weathers

Hoyt, the message length is in charectors, and is something like 8 or 10 thousand, so that should not be a problem...


Ed

To Edward Tinker:

I do not understand you reply.

Please send to me a PM at:

ahab@hiwaay.net.

To Edward Tinker:

I did not correctly read your reply. I now understand what you said.

I did not know that a message could as many characters as you said.
I just checked the message length of this message.
The result is that it said: "The maximum permitted length is 20000 characters."

Once I get all of the measurements in a logical order, I plan to post those results here.
"Nothing ventured is nothing gained"

Regards,
Hoyt

To all repliers:

Stop me before I do something dumb.

Note: I have Ian Skinnerton's Handbook which just arrived today.

My objective is to remove the Russian dip blue but not what is below the dip blue.

Present sattus:

Frame frame and barrel: They both have been cleaned with gloves and Acetone.

Barrel: All parts are out which can be removed except the front site. I have inserted cork stoppers in each end of the barrel.

Frame: I have used suitable gloves and Acetone with cotton wool to remove any oil from all parts of the frame and barrel group. I used Q-tips dipped in Acetone to get into those tiny places such as the grooves which had some gun oil in both the barrel group and the frame group.

Barrel:
I have not swabbed the bore. I used cork stoppers to plug each end. I have used Acetone and Q-tips to swab the grooves in the barrel group and the frame group.
The firing pin has been removed and the Russian dip blue is on it also.
I think the firing pin should be in the white, but I am not sure about this.

I am ready for the parts to go into the vinegar for no more than 30 minutes.

I will NOT put anything into the vinegar until ALL of you guys say "Good to Go" or the equivalent.

Questions:

I. Am I ready for all parts to go into the vinegar not to exceed 30 minutes.

2. Caution comments will be addressed and fully resolved before I go further.

Regards,
Hoyt

To all repliers:

Stop me before I do something dumb.

Note: I have Ian Skinnerton's Handbook which just arrived today.

My objective is to remove the Russian dip blue but not what is below the dip blue.

Present sattus:

Frame frame and barrel: They both have been cleaned with gloves and Acetone.

Barrel: All parts are out which can be removed except the front site. I have inserted cork stoppers in each end of the barrel.

Frame: I have used suitable gloves and Acetone with cotton wool to remove any oil from all parts of the frame and barrel group. I used Q-tips dipped in Acetone to get into those tiny places such as the grooves which had some gun oil in both the barrel group and the frame group.

Barrel:
I have not swabbed the bore. I used cork stoppers to plug each end. I have used Acetone and Q-tips to swab the grooves in the barrel group and the frame group.
The firing pin has been removed and the Russian dip blue is on it also.
I think the firing pin should be in the white, but I am not sure about this.

I am ready for the parts to go into the vinegar for no more than 30 minutes.

I will NOT put anything into the vinegar until ALL of you guys say "Good to Go" or the equivalent.

Questions:

I. Am I ready for all parts to go into the vinegar not to exceed 30 minutes?

2. Caution comments will be addressed and fully resolved before I go further.

Regards,
Hoyt

Hoyt, I would suggest fixing any mechanical problems, before fussing with the finish. Had you not stated that all small parts had been removed, I would have suggested that you check that the ejector (in right receiver) is correctly installed and not rubbing against the rear of the frame, when it reachs that point. TH

I know I am going to hate myself for getting back into this:

Hoyt

1) Did you put your lower receiver in a vice, when you were trying to separate your parts?

If Not:

1) Your rails on your upper receiver are damaged
2) Your rails on your lower receiver are damaged
3) You have a sprung upper receiver.
4) You have twisted your receiver or frame.


Because it would be obvious if your rails are damaged (to you) because we still donâ??t have pictures? I will address the sprung upper receiver. A slightly sprung upper can function perfectly when in the gun but on removal will expand and not allow easy reassembly. Compress your upper slightly and try to fit your two halfâ??s together, I stress slightly!

I donâ??t now about this idea of removing the dip blue? I think your getting ready to be seriously disappointed. But I have never owned a Russian dipper so I am out of my area. What are you going to do if thereâ??s nothing underneath?

Is there anyone on the forum who has done this successfully and been pleased with the results?

If you have a twisted receiver or frame, its gunsmith time- period. Or you need to sale your gun and start again.

Good Luck

Vern

This previous discussion had some info. from Orv about dip-blue removal on guns (probably in P38 context...) :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...p+blue+removal

To LugerVern:

Background info: I used a shooters bench vice with padded areas fore and aft. They are adjustable to grip whatever I put into them.

Status of the Luger before going into the vise:
The barrel assembly would go almost into battery, but not all the way. I could not pull the barrel assembly out with my two hands.

Then using the vise, I did something really dumb. I used a metal punch backwards against the left rear of the frame and stuck the small end of the punch with a metal hammer. I now agree with several members that what I did probably warped the frame. I do not know a way to un-do what I did even if that is even possible. I do not have access to a local Luger gunsmith.

I am willing to ship the Luger parts to a Luger gunsmith if I knew of one.

I hereby request the PM addresses of one or more good Luger gunsmiths.

Regards,
Hoyt Weathers

Hoyt

I am sorry; I didnâ??t read your earlier post with your measurements that you tookâ?� .455 inches from the frame to the barrel lugâ?� , BTW this is your fourth change in what is going on with your luger and the left side of the frame is your number 5 change.

I am going back to what I told you before, there is a bur on your right/left upper receiver near the rails, and this is hanging up on your frame at that point. My guess is that you caused this with your hammer and punch or maybe caused it to get worse. I believe your original problem was the stuck barrel lug.

I am out of here but, with all my heart wish you luck!

This has been an interesting post!

Vern

Hoyt, if you like, I can post the you sent me here. I know there are some sharp eyes here that might see something that missed my eyes.. Just let me know.

Hoyt, Sounds like a problem that will take some time and expense to correct. You probably don't want to spend the $50/HR, that it would take to correct this/these problems. TH