Fate of 1900 Test Lugers
 

The long (now ended) discussion between Eric, Albert, Ron and others has stimulated my interest in what happened to all the test lugers. Albert states unequivically that "pristine" 1900 test lugers have to be restored because they received hard wear by use in the field. It is accepted that 1000 of these guns were originally sent for testing but out of range lugers bearing features of the 1900 test have been shown to exist. A large number of test lugers were sold off to Bannerman's after they failed to win the coveted US contract. The subject of the holsters also has come up, some stating that there had to be initials of the accepting ordnance officer on the outside flap. Then it was suggested that not all the holsters were initialed, especially those that went to military outposts such as the Prisidios of San Francisco and Monterey. Thus, there may well have been more than 1000 AE lugers that bear test characteristics. Not only that, but since we were not at war in 1900, it is possible that a number of these lugers could have came through in good condition. I just don't think one can say that to be a "real" test luger, it has to be worn. I have to believe that as, in addition to Eric's test luger, I have seen close up and in good light, two others in near 98% condition.

Doc, According to Mike Reese's book on the subject, Springfield Arsenal, The Presidio and the Gunnery School in Montery each received 25 lugers for testing. I suspect that these lugers remained in better condition that the 5 each, sent to each Calvery unit for use in the field and to check parts interchangability. I'm always suspecious when I see one of these in matching minty condition, as I know that many have been restored. Years ago when I lived in the Bay Area, I inquired at the Presidio Museum, if they had any records of these lugers, without results. You may want to follow up with Montery, but they will probably tell you that all of the records were send to the National Archives (good branch in San Bruno), which Mike Reese spent many hours researching. L Doc

All you have to do is ask Gerry Burney, of "holster Repair" He can give you an idea how many test holster passed through his hand and the different varieties, Just look in the HL luger dowloads in its 'luger accessories' dowload, featuring a test holster with leather straps extending, In fact my luger set with holster in featureD, on Marios' Italian Luger Artillerie site. Be patient we will find you one, You or any of our member, can send me an email Ipromise you wont be disappointed, 'SNOOKEM13@AOL.COM' GOD BLESS can somone insert a entry in his site,

Thanks for your reply Tom. I agree that one must be very suspicious about good condition test eagles, and with that said, number one, I know they exist, and number two, I make sure that Mike Krause has a good look at them!

Just an afterthought: the test eagle on the cover of Reese's book looks to be in pretty good shape!

Do we have any idea, how many we sold through the bannermam catalog and how many wound up a salesman samples, Is there any record how many were retured to their store, Aberchrombie & finch had to sell some to its favorite customers

I was very lucky to have a long time relationship, with Ralh Shadduck, who sold me both my Test Luger #6786, the U.S. test Holster and diplay, the same one being sold by Simpon, for a couple of thousand dollars, I know a few must still exist, He wouldnt sell me his last!

Eric, I'm not so sure about that. Ralph is a businessman first, a collector second, not the other way around!

And He should be, a Businessman with a heart! And He also sold me one of his 9mm,Luger Carbine and Ill send you a closeup that I hope your or Ed will post one of the finest I ever seen,

Doc, I would like to correct a sentence in your post above where you state "Albert states unequivically that "pristine" 1900 test lugers have to be restored because they received hard wear by use in the field...". According to the number of surviving US Test Lugers (let's say 200-300 pieces, but refer to Ron's table), the number of 'pristine' US Test Lugers probably accounts today for 2-3 pistols which are in 'closet' collections, and I do not even have one. Let me say that I consider 'pristine' condition about 98%, and I reckon that the average condition of a surviving US Test Luger is about 85% condition (or less).

I would like you to imagine this story, and then you tell me afterwards what are the chances of a US Test Luger maintaining 98%+ condition. About 106 years ago, a bunch of Lugers were shipped to the US and upon arrival they were delivered to various units around the country. These officers made sure that they were handled very carefully during the trails and even went as far as wiping down the pistols with rags after (excessive) use so there would be no chance of corrosion. To prevent wear on the finish (including the high edges and around the muzzle), they limited the use of inserting the pistols into a holster. When they decided that US Army was not going to adopt the Luger, they made sure to wipe down thoroughly each pistol before they packed them away in pistol pouches which were then placed in crates/boxes for storage for the next 6-7 years. When they decided to sell the quantity of pistols to Bannerman, they told the dealer that these pistols were 'curios & relics'. When each pistol was sold, the new owner took the same measures to perserve the pistol because he wanted to keep the pistol as new as possible.

Now, if you believe this comic story, I would suggest you drop your Luger hobby and look for another area of collecting. In conclusion, when you examine a Luger (especially a test Luger or a military Luger) that is to good to believe, there is a strong chance that it could be restored. As I repeat a thousand times to my friends, look for patina and consistency of the finish (including machine marks) on any pre-war pistol - these details MUST exist if you want to sleep with satisfaction during the night.

For example, I had the privilage in 1998 to examine a M1900 Presentation Luger in a case that was given to Prince Franz Joseph of Austria before he became king. That Luger I considered as pristine, however, I did notice signs that the pistol had been handled and fired - I even saw patina on the crown of the muzzle caused by the corrosive gun powder used in the early 1900's. Everything on the pistol, including the case, had consistency across the board. If you can grasp what I am trying to explain, you will learn well and fast as well as limit your financial loses in your hobby/investment. If a collector wants to buy a restored pistol, that is his personal choice and decision, but the biggest disappointment occurs when he expects to buy a genuine piece which turns out to be wrong. Maybe some wealthy collectors do not give a damn because they believe that money is power, but it can come back and bite them in the ass when they discover the truth.

Albert

Like any other possession, Its my business from where or who it came from, that none of your business, unless I so decide. Do you post where your rather rugged test gun and holster came from, enjoy what you have and dont belittle someone or some luger, unless your opinion is sought, Your older and wiser, 'Thou shalt not covett, thy neighbors' Luger'

It doesn't matter, from where I came. It matter only where I am and where I will be.'Eric Bruning, BA, Juris Doctor, and that doesnt matter, as Man worth isn't measured by the value of his Luger. but by the quality,

If mine and the other member were restored, who and how did they restore back to its present condition? What process is employed and what tell tail signs are left behind.

Eric,

My post above was a reply to Doc's (drbuster) starting post, and it has no reference to your US Test Luger. If you interprete my post as an attack on your Luger, that is your problem. If you can read properly, it gives a 'reverse' explanation (with humour) regarding how the normal handling and elements would have affected the condition of any Luger, expecially a US Test Luger which is over 100 years old.

If you want to get aggresive with me in public, I shall tear you a new.... I suggest that you calm down and take your remarks and religious guotes elsewhere. Some collectors are willing to learn by receiving logical and intelligent information, and others such as yourself, want to dream. More power to you!

Albert

Sorry for the delay in answering your post, Albert. I absolutely agree with what you have said. With that being said how do you go about examining a luger to convince yourself whether it has been restored or not? We have had several posts on the Forum visiting this issue. I have my own ways but I also make certain that I show it to several of my collecting collegues including Mike Krause, who I trust and am lucky to live near.

Sorry Albert, We can all leaarn from each other, and have some fun without perceived attacks, Thank you all!

I understand that there is a Luger in the West Point Museum. Did West Point get any test lugers? Has anyone seen the luger at West Point and can give a description of it. My God Son will be entering West Point this year and I have asked him to try and find out condition and serial number for me.

We have the privalege to recal History, on such an Important subjet, Let us realize that words are alike bullets, once released from silos of anger, they can no longer be recalled or explained, for the pull of one finger started one war, while the push of another, luckily ended another, eric

Congradulations, How proud you must be, Make sure to make the Army-Navy game!Yea Kick ask!

erndog105,

Ten Test Lugers were shipped from Springfield Armory to West Point as part of the trials. Serial number 7014 is in the West Point Museum, I do not know the condition. Congratulations to your God Son on being accepted into West Point. I wish him well.

Doc,

Are you asking me to write a book highlighting the details that I look for when I examine a pistol? I shall begin to give some details, but if I get tired, I shall stop because it is a long list:

1) Get a new pair eyeballs! Dump those eyeballs which are attracted by 'cosmetic' appearances - we all had this problem when we entered collecting. We all like those shiny objects, but they can mislead us - its like looking at a beautiful nude woman! There are some pristine Lugers known to exist, but they are a bitch to find, and when they do show their face, they are usually very expensive;

2) When I examine a Luger, I look for tiny blackish spots of patina, not on top of the finish, but UNDERNEATH it. This patina CANNOT be replicated because it takes many years for it to appear, without confusing it with larger rust spots which can appear on the surface of the finish. If you cannot see it, take the Luger into sunlight and examine it. Areas to examine are along edges, those hard to reach areas, and especially on the grip safety. For example, no matter how well you clean a Luger, you will miss a spot, and with time, patina will begin to appear in those missed areas. One area where this can happen is under the wood grips. Imagine back to the beginning of last century - did owners carefully clean their Lugers (including the removal of the grips) using the same techniques we use today? Answer - hell no, most owners did not give a s***! They used their guns back in the period like modern pistols being used today;

3) Examine the fire blued areas. Fire blue is a thin type of finish which discolors and fades quickly when it comes into contact with moisture and acidity (even from a holster). It will change from fire blue color to purplish color, and then brownish color to dull bear metal. This change of color can especially be noticed on the right grip screw which becomes into direct contact with the surface of a shooters hands that contain sweat and moisture, or the surface of a table etc, For example, my Cartridge Counter which is in top condition, has about 50% finish on the left grip screw and hardly none on the right grip screw. Hey, that is what I like to see because it is absolutely normal even if all Cartridge Counters were reburbished by DWM. Another example - the grip screws on my M1906 Portuguese Royal Navy Luger have turned to a brownish color, and this Luger is the finest condition Luger in my collection - it can be rated as pristine;

4) Examine carefully the staw such as on the safety and takedown lever. You should notice very fine parallel machine marks which I describe as 'tiger grain'. Furthermore, the straw should be CONSISTENT in color, even around the curved areas which are thinner or thicker. When a booster messes around with these parts during a restoration, normally the machine marks are polished/cleaned off, and the straw becomes uneven because of the alternating or incorrect temperature in a furnace/oven. To prevent burning the straw, sometimes the straw comes out to light. Straw, in the same manner as fire blue, will naturally fade with contact wear - look for these normal wear areas to the bear dull metal. Moreover, check of blackish patina on the strawed parts, such as along the ejector, and the development of greyish stains - we call that impregnated dirt - again that is natural occurrence;

5) In the same manner as 'tiger grain' on strawed parts, examine carefully (with a magnifying loop) the milling marks, especially in the area of the 'ears'. In the case of early Swiss Lugers, the milling is very, very light, but it still appears. The edges of the marks should be sharp. Milling and machine marks are thicker on military Lugers, and they can be observed on the barrel as circular rings;

6) Continuing on the subject of 'dirt', I also check the crown of the muzzle for small black spots of patina were (corrosive) gun powder has landed and discolored the dull metal. Over 70 years ago, the large majority of shooters never gave attention to cleaning the crown and, therefore, corrosion begins to occur. When boosters restore Lugers, they normally clean this area and remove those natural traces.

7) The examination which I am about to explain may sound strange/unusual, but I have obtained good results from it. The quality of the finish (whether it was rust of salt blue) that was applied by German firearms manufacturers had very high adhesive properties on to steel and the methodology which was used during the process resulted in a finish that had very strong bondage, even in the tightest corners and interior edges. During the examination of a Luger (completely dismantled), use your finger or a Q-tip to rubber various hard to reach areas - you will notice that none of the original factory blue will be removed, but with a restored Luger, some blue will come off. Boosters have not yet mastered the technique of completely sealing the finish. It involves more steps than just boiling the parts in water and chemicals to stop the rusting process. Even the final polishing of the pistol at the factory was very thorough. When doing such an inspection, do not confuse blue finish with dirt or gun powder. I have used this method with great success on Mauser C96 pistols, especially in the magazine well and the inside of the grip straps. In regards to an original C96 pistol, NO finish will come off during a short hard rub.

8) After you have examined the various details you have learned, examine the overall pistol for CONSISTENCY in regards to condition bearing in mind the various points I have mentioned above. There might be an exception where the hue/contrast of the finish/polish is slightly different from the rest of the pistol, nonetheless, it should 'flow' with the rest of the pistol. As an example, the finish on a Krieghoff barrel might be slightly different than the upper receiver. Also, examine areas where the metal could have been hardened, because the original finish will take on a slightly higher contrast. For example, this can be noticed as a 'thumbprint' on the rear of the frame of a Kreighoff Luger, and also on the side of the ejection port of a M1930 Broomhandle pistol. You should receive a 'good-vibe' from the pistol by noticing these 'comfort zones'. Lastly, if a Luger is GENUINE, it should speak for itself (as well as the price). Remove all the BS and the excuses you can create in your mind, and then ask yourself "can I be satisfied with this Luger in my collection?" Of course, there are collectors who will accept less than perfect/pristine, but you must make your own standards. It is also important to use common sense and logic in relation to history and realistically apply it to pistol. You might be surprised that you will probably come up with a different answer than compared to your original believe/opinion. Lastly, I have explained to some good friends that it is NECESSARY to include and understand the European culture, heritage, traditions, reason, military requirements as well as the high manufacturing standards when talking about European firearms. If you can learn or relate to these aspects of European life, it will eliminate 80% of the BS created by stories!

I hope these sensible guidelines are helpful to you and my fellow friends, and if we follow good advise (also provided by other experts such as my friend Ron), we will be able to appreciate the good stuff and keep out the intentional forgeries from harming our hobby and investment.

Happy hunting,
Albert

PS: I got tired!

Albert
Excellent presentation.
Jan

Some thoughts on the comments made so far in this discussion--

drbuster wrote:
â?¦ since we were not at war in 1900, it is possible that a number of these lugers could have came through in good condition.

Although not technically â??at warâ?�, the Test Lugers were sent to areas of U.S. Military activity. 305 were sent to cavalry troops in the Philippines; 170 sent to cavalry troops in Cuba; and 395 to the American frontier, forts in such places as Wyoming, South Dakota, Kansas, Missouri, Utah, Texas, Arizona, Montana, Nebraska, Colorado, New Mexico, and â??Occupied Territoriesâ?� (as well as forts in Vermont, Virginia, and California).

The United States had recently been engaged in the Spanish-American war, and as a result of that conflict occupied the Philippines and Cuba. Early in 1901 the U.S. put down a three-year-long rebellion by Philippine rebels. As an occupier force patrolling a large countryside after such an event, one would expect these guns to have done active duty. The same could be said for Cuba, save for the insurrection.

The army in the Philippines and Cuba served in tropical conditions. These are extraordinarily hard on gun steel, as evidenced by almost every Dutch Luger still in existence. One can also imagine that the guns serving with the cavalry on the frontier were subject to dust and constant holster wear.

Donâ??t forget, these guns were issued to be tested. They were sent to places in which they would be subject to extremes of service. During the test period a number of these guns were returned to Springfield Armory for repair, where they were determined to be unrepairable and unfit for further service. I canâ??t document the number right now, it was not insignificant.

Just an afterthought: the test eagle on the cover of Reese's book looks to be in pretty good shape!

Indeed it does. Although it would have been disingenuous of the author, there is nothing in the book which indicates that this is actually a U.S. Test gun. The other guns he pictures, still in very good shape, all show evidence of use even with the bookâ??s mediocre photo reproduction.

Imperial Arms wrote:
According to the number of surviving US Test Lugers (let's say 200-300 piecesâ?¦)

255 of the Bannerman guns are reported to exist.

Erndog105 wrote:
I understand that there is a Luger in the West Point Museum. Did West Point get any test lugers?

Eight or ten guns were sent to West Point for testing (the record is conflicting). 200 rounds were sent with each gun, suggesting that they would not have been subject to much active use.

It should be understood that â??all- of the Test Eagles in the Armyâ??s possession were recalled and sold, including the guns at West Point and Springfield Armory. The guns currently in their museums are recorded in the Bannerman auction list.

Apropos of no one elseâ??s comments:

It should be remembered that 50 Test Eagles â??now on hand and in good conditionâ?� were exchanged for the 50 Cartridge Counter guns. Hans Tauscher directed that the Army send these guns directly to A.H. Funke, a firearms retailer in New York. These guns are, of course, not represented in the Bannerman list, and their serial numbers are unknown.

Hans Tauscher specified that the guns were to be in "good condition" (i.e., re-sellable); the â??now on handâ?� comment is from a 1903 extract of the proceedings of the Board of Ordinance. It is hard not to imagine that the best condition and easiest accessible guns were those in the possession of the Springfield Armory and West Point. It is possible to read it to mean that by April, 1903, the U.S. Test guns had begun to be recalled.

--Dwight

Albert, one of your Finest hours!!! You are truly a gifted individual, Thank You, Eric Bruning,

You Gentleman need to write a book, to correct all the misconceptions.

Dwight, its an honor to walk in your footsteps, I guess it good to ruffle feathers, now aand then!

erndog105

When you expect visit West Point, other than the viist on July 2nd for R-day when you would be too busy, call ahead to the USMA Museum's Curator of Firearms. He will be very happy to show you the Luger that is in the Museum collection and he will probably let you take detailed photos.

The Museum is located right outside the main gate to the post, in Highland Falls, on what used to be the campus of Ladycliff College. The grounds ajoin the south boundary of the post.

If you need assistance, please contact me. I have had a working relationship with the Curator of the Museum on the subject of West Point class rings in their collection.

Ron: If erndog105 cannot get to the Museum, I may be able to do so on my next trip from Georgia to northern New York and I could try photos as well.

Very kindly,

David
USMA '01 father

Albert my friend, let me add my thanks for your excellent presentation and encourage you to indeed write a book on collecting in general and Lugers in particular. Even a small book on this topic would have wide appeal in my opinion and few are as qualified as you to create such a work. Such book would be a departure from the type of "variations" books written by Henry Jones, Charles Kenyon and our own illustrious Jan Still. A valuable book to the Luger enthusiast community and would displace books such as the Aaron Davis books which are a waste of money in my opinion.

To all who contributed to this thread. Thanks for the scholarly discussion and a very interesting read.

John,

Thank you for the kind remarks and motivation you are giving me to write a book. You might cause me to change my profession from a computer instructor/consultant to that of an authour, without forgetting that I am currently writing a manuscript on the Mauser C96 which will yield two books on the subject. If I am not exhausted after the two Mauser books, I shall try to write a third book on Mauser revolver and pistol variations, unless I change the order and squeeze in a book on general collecting. I agree that such a book would be beneficial to the collecting faternity, but I believe that its attention would need to be focused around German semi-automatic pistols which is the area I know best.

Could I kindly recommend that you transfer a copy of my presentation to another section, allowing me to continue expanding and editing the presentation by adding information and images. Collectors will then be able to read the updates and see examples of the details I am explaining.

Dwight, thank you and well done with the convincing comments/facts which you added. When you 'stir in' history, I believe that all this information helps us to open our eyes to the facts.

Eric, I accept your apology and let us 'not get bent out of shape'.

Thanks,
Albert

Fellows, I have continued to expand my list above explaining some guidelines to consider when examing a Luger.

David that is sweet of you, When I was young we actually stayed overnight in a beautiful building overlookinf the Hudson River, Everybody treated my late mom and me like Generals,I hope someday to return to my Youth, God Bless!

Once and for all, Albert, I will submit closeups of my Test Luger, sn#6786, to an expert of your choice, even though Ron performed an exhausted examination of my Luger and Holster, What more can be done to convince you, One thing Is sure, Ive never seen a test luger and holster, in such poor condition as the one displayed on your site. they cant be all in that shape.I want to finish this debate, once and for all,Im open to suggerstion, from any of our members Eric, 'SNOOKEM13@AOL.COM' 772-336-5312

Im sorry for appearing so unproffessional, but ive waited so many years to finally own a Test Luer and Holster, I finally acheived my dream, and a long time member, without examining, im person, insinuate that I was taken by a good friend and long time mentor, Ralph Shattuck, Personal attacks just ruin this wonderful site and I thank and appologise to all, for straying arry

Eric,
I have looked at your Luger photos but I have not done any of the type of examination as I did on your holster...nor do I care to. I do not wish to contribute to this continued running dialogue between you and Albert. I appreciate your apologies to the group and I think we all would very much appreciate it if the topic of your and Albert's Test Lugers and holsters is dropped and we move on to other things.

Albert and Eric...I deleted your posts and will continue to do so until this back and forth nonsense stops. Eric, even though your post was not derogatory and had nothing to do with Albert, I felt that if I deleted one, I should delete both. Albert, you were repeating the same thing again and I really regret having to step in here, but it is time to move on.