Lugers With Ground-off Stock Lugs Data Request
 

Since becoming interested in Lugers and German police markings, I have learned from various sources that some Lugers were "butchered" by grinding off their stock lugs to prevent their being used with shoulder stocks contrary to U.S. firearms laws. While I do not have a basis for disputing this, I am researching an hypothesis that at least some of these may have had this surgery upon their delivery to German police in regions occupied by the French following WWI. The French occupied the southern Rhineland until January 1930 and may have required this modification for some of the Lugers used by the German police in these areas. Specific examples are 29 DWM Lugers with u and v suffixes that are marked H.P. on the grip straps and two Lugers from the occupied city of Wiesbaden marked S.W.II.

To test this hypothesis, I would appreciate learning of any Lugers, police marked or not, that have had their stock lugs ground off. Data I'm interested in include:
- Toggle logo and chamber date / property stamp, if any
- Serial number with suffix, if any
- Grip strap marking or evidence of removal, if any
- Sear and mag safeties or evidence of removal, if any
- Photo of ground lug area, if possible
- Confirmation, if available, of the grinding having been done in the U.S.

Thanks in advance for your help.

It's been almost two months since I posted this on three popular forums and I have had zero response. I am beginning to think that the stories about grinding stock lugs to comply with U.S. firearms laws are myths. Maybe bringing this topic back to the top will shake the tree.

Don, I am not surprized by the zero response...

I have no facts to back this, but my feeling is that any grinding of stock lugs took place in the USA, not overseas... based on ill-advised interpretations of the "law"

The "law" about the use of pistols with shoulderstocks would naturally be the National Firearms Act of 1934... I believe Lugers were legally imported into this country complete with Stock Lugs after that date by Stoeger... There may have even been some that thought that "customizing" their Luger by grinding off the stock lug and refinishing it would give it a smoother appearance...

Don, I have a few Lugers and NONE of them have ground off stock lugs. I think you are looking for a needle in a hay stack!!

The lack of stock lugs are found in the early DWM Lugers and those that were eliminated by people that were afraid of the BATF rules.

Sorry I can't add anything further!!

John and Frank,

Thanks for the replies. I was beginning to feel like a leper!

I realize that the prevailing opinion among collectors is that stock lugs were ground off in the US; however, I am looking for some first-hand confirmation of that. So far, I've drawn a blank.

Don
Sorry I somehow missed this originally. Ihave a 29 Sneak with the stock lug partially ground off.
Toggle logo None
Chamber date None
L. Ar. 196.
sear and mag safety (only partially remaining)
No idea where it was done.
If you would like pictures let me know. Bill

Bingo!!!

Bill, I would love photos, particularly of the ground-off lug, as well as the full serial number of the gun. Thanks very much for letting me know.

John, I think that Don is correct, this is more of a feeling, rather than as true as we'd like to think. I have seen ground stock lugs, but it is less common than you'd think and some of the ground stock lugs are on police lugers.


Ed

I am not really championing one position or the other --- just trying to get at the facts as Joe Friday would say. Bill's pistol may be evidence that some were ground in the US.

Don - Missed the serial number; it is 3519u. If the pictures aren't what you need, let me know. Regards Bill

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/p1010324.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/p1010327.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/p1010328.jpg

Bill,

It looks like there is no c/N proof on the left receiver, is this correct? What is the proof on the breechblock? Is there a e/WaA66 (or other stamp) on the right receiver?

--Dwight

Dwight
Right receiver and barrel proofed same as one in Jan's Third Reich Luger book pg.213. One in book is only 32 #'s from mine. Proof on breechblock is same eagle as first on breechblock. No C/N on receiver. If you need more info just ask. Bill

Bill,

Thanks very much for the additional info. Having a complete WaA proof suite instead of commercial proofs is very unusual--I only have three others recorded in the Commercial database, all u suffix 29DWM.

--Dwight

Bill,

Thanks very much for posting this. This grinding may have been done in the US.

:) of course, joe was my hero, "the facts ma'am, just the facts..." was a quote I loved...

Hi, I'm new to the forum and I believe you guys might be able to supply some answers to my questions.
I just bought a 1917 Artillery Luger with the stock lug ground-off. The numbers are 5404 DWM, and I just love it. It had two worn teeth and I replaced the Ladder and Sight w/ Fine Tune. The value I'm slightly concerned but not too much since I really like all the aspects of the gun, i.e., beauty, accuracy, excellent handling, etc.
My question is, can and where could I have the stock lug re-installed (welded then machined)? For I don't plan selling it any time soon, I'm enjoying it too much.

Btw, the grind was done so good that it is extremely smooth and contoured that it looks like there never was a stock lug there. And value on not... I like it, :)
Thx.
mastermo (Manuel :)

Oh, almost forgot, all parts are matched and I'm saving the worn matching sight.
Manuel

Try a Search...Someone here (Lugerdoc?) was advertising some halves of Martz frames...

Don M -

I've sent you a private message.

Ron

I saw a couple ground Lugers about 1960 and recall the story.
It just involved the legality in the USA.

They were not commonly seen.

I had a mint C96 rig, all matching including stock and 1916 leather I got from a vet neighbor.
They were illegal then and I had to give it up in 1966 just before going to the army.
Got ratted out by a fool in my dorm.
That was one nice pistol!

Welding and re-machining a Luger frame to original specifications would take an extreme amount of work and getting all the subtle shapes just right would require a real artist with a torch... and a full machine shop. I would venture to say that it would be VERY expensive procedure...

The simplest way to restore a stock lug would be to obtain a damaged frame and have a "stock lug-ectomy" transplant operation. It would take much less effort (read that as much less expensive..) and final finishing would result in a much nicer final product with all the original grace and engineering intact. Since the all-matching gun has already been altered by grinding the lug off, repairing it should not depreciate it's value at all, and will likely increase it's value as a shooter.

M, I do have several rear grip strap sections available, from just the stock lug section @$50 to the whole rear 1/3 of the frame @$100. Hopefully you can find someone here on the Forum with the welding talent to install it for you. TH

Lugers With Ground-off Stock Lugs Data Request
 

Thx. guys :)
At first I just liked it and didn't know anything what the effect of the grinding had on the gun because it looks so perfect.
I read some of the posts on the de-valuation and I had several thoughts that might be something to think about. I'd like to share them with you but I need a little time to organize what I want to say and how to say it, so as soon as I write it I'll post it.
M

"M, I do have several rear grip strap sections available, from just the stock lug section @$50 to the whole rear 1/3 of the frame @$100. Hopefully you can find someone here on the Forum with the welding talent to install it for you. " Lugerdoc

---I don't understand. It has a strap (kinda square) holder on the back. ...I'll think I'll need a picture of what you mean and what it takes and is needed.
thx
M

Here is what he's talking about...The backstrap with stock lug...Now, if this were mine (with a ground off lug), I would cut both backstraps above and below the lug, and TIG weld the good strap + lug to the frame you'll be using...and then mill/grind/file the welds...

TIG welding is shielded inert gas atmosphere welding...using a tungsten electrode...pretty much any good welding shop can do it for you...Mating the two parts together so everything is in the right place is the trick...Might be a good idea to make a jig to hold them...

This part of the grip frame is a non-stress area. It should work out fine.

Thx., P
I see now what he was talking about and it does look like it would work.
M
:)

A Missing Link
 

Hi guys,
Here's some of the thoughts I had about Lugers that had their "stock lug ground off" or altered in some way or another.
If you look at the point-of-view the collectors have towards these guns it appears that only original unaltered guns would be worth selling at a very marked up price, which equals more profits. I gathered this just by looking at the prices of original equipment and guns.
Well then, if they are looking towards making as much $ as possible, since they are collecting and ready to sell at the right price, I believe we are missing out on something. ---And btw. I hope I'm not stepping on some toes for imo. they also do appreciate German master craft.
These original Lugers, that had their stock lug ground off, represent a part of history and are surviving as a memento or reminder as what happened to Lugers overall. If we don't they will be phased out and we will be left with missing evidence and history.
What I read somewhere was that the U.S. government didn't like guns that would hold 32 cartridges, therefore making it almost impossible to do so. Plus, with no added stock probably to make it less efficient for long range, As you notice only the stock lug was ground off so that it would be hard to add the stock and the Snail Drum, the rest of the gun was left alone. So now we are left with queries as to really why was this done; when was this done; and most importantly why would this alteration make these original Lugers less than what they are?
Imo, this makes this piece rare with its authentic mark of its history that other guns didn't undergo. And still, even with its scars, is a Master Piece regardless what anyone does to it, :)
M

M, I do have several rear grip strap sections available, from just the stock lug section @$50 to the whole rear 1/3 of the frame @$100. Hopefully you can find someone here on the Forum with the welding talent to install it for you. TH
__________________

Lugerdoc,
I think I'll take you up on your suggestion along with Postino suggestion. It sounds great. ---Watch for my email.

When I try it I don't think this would degrade my gun since there is a big difference in the intention of the actions. Someone defaced it and I would be trying to rehabilitate/restore it or make it better, :)
M

How would you go about the welding and what kind of rod would you use to make sure that you get a uniform finish when you blue it? I have tried different types of welding, but it always shows some degree of "ghosting" in the finish.

To clarify the stock grinding phenomena;

It had nothing to do with magazine capacity. The high capacity magazine silliness did not come under legal scrutiny until the assault weapons law of 1994.
What collectors were reacting to was the provisions of the original national Firearms Act, (NFA) of 1934, which prohibited any pistol with a barrel length of less than 16" from having an attached shoulder stock. The curio and relics list was created to extempt certain historically important firearms from these provisions, if they were originally produced with the shoulder stock, (i.e. Navy and Artillery Lugers, C96s, etc. ). Cofusion as to what was and was not legal led to many Lugers having the stock lug groung off to put an end to any question of legality. (It is still illegal today to place a shoulder stock on a 4" standard Luger).
Aside from any lugs which may have been ground off overseas, this is the main reason this occured here in the US.

Same here, but my mythical lug-less Luger is a shooter, so it would not matter (to me)...And even if it did matter, it wouldn't matter if it mattered... :roflmao:

As for rod, I'm thinking 1/16" 4140 ANNEALED ROUND ROD...I'd cut the two frames in the same two places, then bevel the cuts...I'd hand brush the cut & beveled surfaces with a [new] stainless steel brush to remove any rust/scale/contaminant, make up a jig to hold the pieces in place, use a Miller Shopmaster 300 TIG welder with water-cooled torch and foot rheostat, and put enough weld on the joints to machine away until I get the desired contours...On my cheap Chinese 3in1 mill... :D

...Or maybe if I'm lazy, just grab a coat hanger and weld it up with that...(That's more likely)... :p

Edit: Since this is a non-critical area, you could mill the cuts flat and silver-solder or braze the lug section to the grip frame...Silver-solder will take some bluing...Only a light line will show...

Well, that's an approach I have used on some projects as well. :D It would still be very interesting to know if it's possible to get a nice finish on welded parts. I have managed to get some pretty good results on the weld itself, but there's always a dark halo around the perimeter. Would pre-heating help?

alanint,
Boy that sure clears up things, thx.
I did think, if you wanted, one could still use the Snail Drum even if it might be a little heavier holding without the shoulder stock.
M

---LOL! EXACTLY! :cheers:
M

Don, I have seen maybe 10 in the process of restoring around 300 shooter Lugers. That will give you a rough percentage from one source. I did not think to keep track of them and I dont take a lot of pictures anymore. Sorry I was not more help.:banghead: BTW, I know Hub has fixed some of them the way John Sabato mentioned. Also, when he makes the Baby Lugers he cuts out a portion of the frame all across it and rewelds it using special mandrels/heat sinks to align the frame/magazine well. The cut section actually rusts blues pretty good.

Don;
I dont know if this will help but my 1920 Commercial DWM .30 Cal., 3-7/8 barrel shooter serial #633 (o) has the stock lug ground so heavily there is a hole in the back grip strap.

... :eek: ...

I couldn't believe that...I had to take my 30 cal commercial grips off and look...Sure enough, you are correct - there is a long rounded cavity in the backstrap where the recoil spring fits (drill hole)...and your hole looks like it is right at the bottom of that cavity... :(

...I didn't think the backstrap was that thin... :o

Looks like Bubba got ahold of this one.

Barring receipt of new information, I have concluded that two Weimar-era police units removed stock lugs, almost certainly at the insistence of French occupation forces:
* The Hessische Polizei (H.P.) in the occupied portions of Hessen recieved newly manufactured Lugers from BKIW (in the upper u and lower v series) in late 1929 and/or early 1930. There are many examples and all have their stock lugs very professionally removed. There are a number of older Lugers with H.P. markings that do have stock lugs. I believe these were issued earlier to the Schupo outside of the occupation zone.
* The Prussian Schupo in the occupied city of Wiesbaden also removed stock lugs very professionally. Although only three examples are known to me, I a very confident that this modification was done during the French occupation. They all are marked S.W.II.

(See HWIS Chapters 8 and 16.)

Based on this, I think it is highly likely that any Luger with a ground stock lug that is not marked H.P. or S.W.II. was altered here in the good old U.S. of A.

---Postino, is your gun different then the action gun on the HOME Page? Because the way it actuates the recoil spring is not connected to the back strap or anything, it works with a rod within it independently.
M :confused:

...Uh...What???... :confused:

No...I was referring to the channel that the recoil spring fits in...