Need Info!!!!
 

Hello Everyone,
I'm new to this site and am hoping to find some help!!!:)...I have recently aquired this Luger from a reletive!!! All I know is that it was my grandfathers and that he had it since sometime in the early 1920's....I would like to find out just what it is...its relative condition and perhaps an guestimated value....If anyone can help me out it would be greatly appreciated 8-) I have done a little investigation on the forum main page prior to coming to the message board and what I know so far is the gun has a toggle inscription DWM and no chamber inscription...under the barrel and infront of the triger gaurd is the serial # the letter (a) italisized and GERMANY... It appears to have a proof mark ether # 4 or # 28 from the lists given...I couldn't tell which...one on the side of the barrel by the serial # and one on side of the extractor....it has a 3 3/4 " barrel which seems to be a little rare because I only saw one listing for that size!!!...all part #'s are matching...I didn't know were to look on the clip but I didn't see any numbers of any kind on the clip!!..It does have Germany stamped on the bottom!!...It has GESICHERT on the safty and GELADEN on the extractor. It does appear to be missing a trigger spring!! I saw no dates on it any where....I am going to try and attach several photos....As I mentioned any help that anyone can give me will be greatly appreciated...I'll look forward to a response...again hello to all and I hope this message finds everyone who reads it well and happy .....thanks ...Tim

Photos
 

I'm not sure what happened but my message posted before I could attach my photos;) so here they are ..I hope!!!

Not sure why that is so big!!! I'll try again

Guess maybe I could use some advice on attaching pics :p

Tim, you are doing fine. I did move the thread from the help / feedback forum, to the New Collectors area. Welcome to the forum!

It looks like you have a weimar era commercial luger. Do you know if it is 9mm or 7.65mm?

The reasons it is a called alphabet luger ;

1. The import export stamp that says Germany
2. The crown N on the left
3. SN range
4. no date on the receiver

There are two possibilities, it was made for the military an then was exported, or it was a ww1 / parts and put together, scrubbed and reproofed before shipping.

Can we have full right side and a few other pictures, such as closer of the left markings and right markings if any.

Ed

PS barrel looks normal size to me. Take a pencil, drop down the barrel with action closed, , mark it, measure what was inside. I bet it is 3 5/8ths or 4 inches. But the 3 3/4 is also possible, escpecially for a commerical meant piece.

Hello Edward,
Thanks...yes it is 7.65 It seems I ovelooked that little detail.. LoL.. I would be happy to move to the new collectors area and supply the extra pics you suggested just as soon as I have a few extra minutes. I measured the barrel as you instructed and it sure looks like 3 3/4 " to me!!!! Thanks so much fo your timely response and I will look forward to learning more about my gun. Again thanks and I will look forward to hearing from you in the future:-)

More Photos
 

Hello All,
Edward suggested that I provide a little more info in the form of some more photos....so that is what I am here doing:-)...I look forward to anyones input about my gun...To everyone...have a nice day!!!8-(

Barrel Measurment

Left Side View

More markings

More markings

Last one...If anyone needs any othe photos for any reason just let me know and I can take them...Thanks
P.S. I would like to Know where on the clip do you look fo the ID # and what does it mean if there isn't one??:)

Sorry I did have several more photos

Several more

Several more

two more...

0ne more!!!:rolleyes:

Tim,

A few more pictures are necessary to fully explore this Luger. Could you take closeup shots of the left side, right side, and top of the receiver? Also, a closeup picture of the bottom of the magazine would prove very interesting.

--Dwight

Forgot left side close up
 

Here it is:)

The photos you reguested
 

Mr.Gruber,
The photos you requested...if there is anything else I can do to help with the evaluation of my gun...please let me know and I will try my best to provide....thank you for your help;)

Right side view

Bottom of Clip

I just noticed this
 

Hello.
Yes I just noticed this as I was reassembling my gun after taking the last photos and was looking for the # on the locking bolt spring...this is the only number on it and so far the only part that is not numbered 65...what does this mean???... seams like a strange place to stamp a number as I don't see how you could stamp more than one digit!!!!

I would say it is a workers mark. You see them as numbers and letters. SN's are not put on these locations, so...

It is like this mark you have, but is a number;
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dscf0176.jpg

I have seen anything that makes me think different than my first impression... except possibly the replacement barrel (see lack of witness mark on barrel)

Not sure if this is of any importance
 

Hello again,
As I said I,m not sure if this is of any importance but I thought that since I was taking pitures of everything else why not... the one mark seems different than others I saw

other side

Up farther on grip

Tim,

It would have been good to see the receiver top and right receiver closeup as with the left receiver, but no matter--I think there is sufficient material here to assess what you have.

Your Luger appears to be a really excellent example of an Imperial Military Luger which has been "commercialized" by removing all of its military-associated marks, re-worked and refinished, and export stamped for the U.S. market.

Imperial Military DWM Lugers have distinctive inspection marks and proof marks on the right receiver, breechblock, and barrel, and a date on the receiver. The parts serial numbers are present on the exposed faces of the parts, as you have here. Lugers originally made for the commercial market have their small parts serial numbers stamped on their edges or underneath, in "hidden" locations.

Your Luger has been rebarrelled, as can be seen by the lack of a serial number, military proof (a heraldic eagle), bore measurement (e.g. 8,86), and witness mark. This rebarrel necessitated re-proofing by a civilian proof house before it could be re-sold, hence the crown-over-N commercial proofs.

The breechblock appears to have had its Imperial military proof removed--the horizontal filing line suggests this--and the c/N stamped in its place. The general look of the top of the receiver is not consistent with the original pattern of machining, suggesting that a date has been removed. I'm confident that a closeup of the right receiver would show evidence of the Military proofs being removed.

Additional evidence of a military origin is the a letter suffix stamped under the frame serial number. Although this gun masquerades as an Alphabet Commercial, the actual Alphabet Commercial series begins in the 2000i range.

Additional support for a military origin for this Luger is the sheer number of workers' marks on this gun. Commercial Lugers do not generally have nearly this variety. The 1 stamped on your takedown lever is truly a puzzle--a numeric worker's mark would have been contrary to regulations.

Judging by the existence of a stock lug accompanied by an unrelieved sear bar, this gun was made between 1913-1916. As I noted earlier it is a very nice example of its type--most military Lugers sold into the commercial market do not exhibit the craftsmanlike care in marking removal this one has.

Your magazine is a topic all its own. It has concentric rings characteristic of a Navy magazine, and it is stamped GERMANY as an export piece. This is an unusual combination, and would be of considerable value to a collector of commercial Navy Lugers.

--Dwight

Thanks Dwight - I have questions
 

Thanks Dwight,
You have supplied me with a wealth of information...you sure seem to know what you are talking about!!!;) ...at the same time you have raised alot of questions in my mind!!! First off I have taken a few more photos...I hope they are what you where looking for.

You mentioned that the Alphabet Commercial series begins in the 2000i range...could you explain what that means and how it relates to this gun.

Does the #1 stamped on the takedown lever detract from the guns value?

You also mentioned the magazine being an unusual combination and that this would be of value to a collector of commercial Navy Lugers...Did you mean just the Magazine or the entire gun???

Does the 3 3/4" barrel hold any significants???

So this pistol is in reletively good condition???

Lastly have you gathered enough info to give me a rough idea of the value range of this pistol???

I would like to say how much I appreciate you attention and the information you have provided...also your patience with a layperson such as myself...you have really enlightened me to how much there is to know in assessing a Luger...I had no idea...Thanks again!!!!:cheers: I hope you will have time in the future to answer these few questions I have....I will patiently await your reply....Again thanks...Tim

Top view
 

Top view

Another angle
 

Another view

Wasn't sure
 

I didn't know if you wanted to see the right side of the breechblock but here it is;)

Tim,

Your additional pictures confirm that the date and right receiver marks have been removed. The machining marks on the top of the receiver are not found on unmodified guns, and the right receiver shows evidence of "sanding" on its surface. The angle of the line in the rounded receiver area above this sanding indicates that material has been removed.

From 1900 until 1921 DWM serialized commercial Parabellum pistols in a series beginning with 1, and extending to 92000. The part of this serial range from approximately sn 75000 (with some overlap) to sn 92000 have come to be called by collectors "20 DWM". At this point DWM, realizing that the coming extension of the serial range to six digits was going to be impractical to stamp, converted the serial numbering to the military style (four digits with letter suffix), which collectors have come to call "Alphabet Commercial."

In the arithmetic calculation of serial number progression with letter suffix, 2000i is the equivalent of 92000, and that is where the commercial serial range continues. The complete explanation is not complicated, but it is fairly long and somewhat of a digression. If you do a Forum search on "Alphabet Commercial", "serial numbering", and the like (coupled with my name), you will certainly find the long version.

Your gun, being letter suffix a, simply is not in this series.

Considering the rework nature of this gun, the number on the takedown lever does not detract from its value.

The magazine is a beast unto itself. Being a commercial magazine it is not inappropriate to this gun, but an unmarked, plain wood-base magazine would be more representitive of the type. It is the magazine which would be of interest to a Navy collector.

Your barrel length question is a perceptive one. By the regulations set forth under the Treaty of Versailles, German pistol makers were barred from manufacturing guns of "military caliber" (9mm), or with barrels of military length, i.e. 4 inches. The 3 3/4-inch barrel was the length chosen to comply (I presume your gun is in cal. .30 Luger).

From the photos, it appears that your Luger is in pretty good condition.

Check your private messages.

--Dwight