10010b
 

Hi at all, I have a friend, (I live in Argentina) who have this pistol, can anyone extend info about it? year, value, etc? Thanks
Adrian
waffenrec@yahoo.com

Adrian, can you post pictures of the top of the pistol showing the rear sight? It appears that the sight from this single view is a standard 1900 type which would lend one to think this may be a rebarrelled 1900 and not the rarer 7 inch barrelled 1900's with the old type of rear adjustable sight. I can't tell for sure but I think it doesn't have a stock lug which would support a rebarrelled 1900 model. The serial number is in the prototype series. Would like to see other comments.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ighlight=10010

I am unsure why Albert commented on 10010, perhaps he knows something of it...

I think Albert was making an estimate of the upper limit of 10000 range Lugers with the pushbutton stock. Kenyon estimates a slightly higher number (10000-10050). These Lugers are a limited production Commercial series that do not have the "B" suffix.

This gun, 10010B, would appear to be a prototype, possibly a precursor to the aforementioned 7" pushbutton stock variation. If it truly is a prototype piece the rear of the toggle should bear the GL monogram. Photos of the toggle rear and bottom of the rear grip strap plus as many interior part photos as possible (particularly the bottom of the receiver) are needed.

When I made the photo much lighter it appears that there is a stock lug but of a much thinner configuration than usual which might be an indication that this Luger also had a pushbutton stock.

Does anyone think it unsual that the "10010" on the front of the frame shows no halo but the "B" does show halo...???...

I have some thoughts about the "B" but it would be premature to speculate without more pictures. Hopefully they will be forthcoming.

10010B
 

Hi friends, here are more pics.
Thanks
Adrian

10010B
 

more pics

10010B
 

pic.
Adrian
Argentina
waffenrec@yahoo.com

10010B
 

more pics
(sorry for the finger prints over the oil)

10010B
 

more pic

10010B
 

last pic.
Can anyone determine it value?
Thanks
Adrian
Argentina
waffenrec@yahoo.com

Adrian,
It is almost certain that this is a scarce early Luger that used a pushbutton release type sholder stock. I would ask for two more pictures: one of the rear of the toggle below the rear sight to see any markings that may be there and one of the right side of the stock lug at the bottom of the grip to confirm that it has the slot detent that looks like the following photo. Thank you.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/detent.jpg

Hello Friends,

I have been in contact with Adrian for the past few weeks discussing other items and accessories when he mentioned this Luger to me. I had already received images of this Luger and I did not have permission to share the information on a forum.

Doc, this Luger is not a rebarreled M1900/02 and its configuration is correct. It is a standard M1900/02 pistol with a 7" barrel and a fixed sight which was previously equipped with a push-button stock which has gone missing. This pistol is NOT a prototype because I know of about five other pistols with the exact same configuration (7" barrel and a fixed sight) spread out between the serial range 10,000-10,050.

If this pistol had a tangent sight, its value would be significantly higher with or without a 'GL'. In view of the fact that this Luger does not have a 'GL', it can be considered that it was sold as a commercial pistol. It is likely that this particular Luger 10,010B went through the shop of the dealer Rassiti in Buenos Aires, Argentina.

The big question is the possible meaning of the B-suffix. Some collectors would think it has something to do with the barrel length, or the classification of the pistol has an experimental because of a specific detail/feature. If I had to take a wild guess, the B-suffix probably makes reference to a dealer or demonstration sample when they were revealed or sent from DWM to their various representatives around the world including the US.

During my extensive research on the Mauser C96 pistols, I have recorded a few special pistols which I call 'alphabet' C96 pistols which were made around the same period of 1902. These pistols are only numbered with a character such as L, M, Q, R and V. I suppose that DWM introduced a similar pattern of numbering for these dealer/demo sample pistols with new features, except that DWM used a block in the 10,000 serial range with the suffix-B and Mauser decided to use only characters. I do not classify the 'alphabet' C96 pistols as prototypes because there is no change or improvement in the operational system of the pistol. The new features which I have observed could be explained/described as 'cosmetic' which Mauser was probably trying to demonstrate to their dealers. The same concept can be applied to DWM whether or not these pistols remained as in-house specimens or they actually left the factory. I guess DWM may have preferred to send some pistols out which went to different parts of the world such as South America, Europe (including the UK) and Scandinavia.

As I have explained to some fellow collectors during personal conversations, it is important to view the wide picture of European arms manufacturing at the turn of last century in order to get an idea of how each company competed against each other or followed/copied each other even if a few were owned by the same (Loewe) family!

As the saying goes, "for every action, there is a reaction" and this phase can be applied to this very interesting and active period of European firearms improvements. It is our 'job' today to present logical and sensible explainations based on historical facts and designs.

Cheers,
Albert

Thank you Albert for that update. It confirms my belief that this is a pushbutton stock Luger. The fact that it does not have a GL toggle marking brings me to my thought about the "B" suffix. The style of the "B", the fact that it is struck at a slight angle, and that it possesses a halo leads me to believe that it has been added. Someone either thought because it has a 10000 serial number it is a prototype and should have a B, or it was a deliberate attempt to pass it off as a prototype/demo piece. It is unfortunate in either case since the gun is rare enough on its own. I do not believe this piece left the factory with a B-suffix.

Hello Ron,

Based on the information which Adrian provided to me, he told me that this pistol was found at a countryside ranch in Argentina many years ago which I believe (based on its current condition). In addition, the present owner is not knowledgeable about the 10,000 series Lugers, so I doubt he or someone else in Argentina would make a deliberate attempt to stamp a B-suffix on the pistol to pass it off as a prototype/demo. When Adrian told me about this Luger which belongs to a friend, he did not describe it to me as a prototype and, in fact, he was trying to gain more knowledge about it. If someone was going to stamp a B-suffix at the time the pistol was discovered, the stamp would have not create a halo around the character, but instead it would have exposed bare metal which I do not observe on this B-character.

It is my opinion that this Luger serial #10,010B is correct, and I can vouch that Adrian is an honest fellow who is helping a friend find information about this Luger. I am aware that there are some crooks in South America, but I believe that this Luger has never fallen in the wrong hands.

It is a fact that the 7" barrel Lugers were made before those few pistols with 'bull' barrels of various lengths in the 10,030B serial range, therefore, it is reasonable to assume that this pistol 10,010B is correct. I have recorded that Luger serial #10,010 is a Tangent Sight Luger with the engraved 'SP' initials on the chamber owned by Ralph (see MNL book), and another 7" barrel Luger with a fixed sight #10,010 (with the same serial number, which is strange) being owned by a collector in California. I strongly doubt that DWM would make two Lugers with the exact serial number. If I had to take a wild guess, the B-suffix pistols were made first followed by those pistols in the 10,000 (commercial) serial range without a suffix.

Albert

Images of the push-button stock lug type on the pistol.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/stocklugl.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/stocklugr.jpg

10010B
 

Hi Albert

Thanks for yours words, as you told before, I am helping a friend with the pistol info.

At his request, I posted the pistol searching for more info, but as I supposed you are the boss.

I'll drink tonight a "Pi�±a colada" at your name Albert!!!!

Thanks again
Adrian

Albert,
Thanks for the additional pics. It is a wonderful gun. I had absolutely no reason to doubt that Adrian is honest...his post obviously had no hidden agenda. The presence of the halo indicates that the B stamp was made a long time ago, but for the reasons I stated I remain skeptical that it started out life that way. You appear to have access to additional photos, so would it be possible to get a clearer shot of the front of the frame and serial number? It would be most appreciated and may help set my mind at ease.

Ron,

Here in an image showing the serial number.

The individual numbers of serial numbers (and characters) are not allows stamped perfectly right and the B-suffix does not appear suspicious to me. The so called 'halo' on this pistol does not follow the characteristics of natural halos I have observed on other Lugers.

One detail which I am not 100% sure is whether the B-suffix was stamped after the serial number or below the serial number - I guess under the serial number. Maybe you can refresh my mind regarding this method. I know that the the presentation carbines in the 9100 serial range have the number stamped as 9102C along the forearm tang.

Albert

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...mber_copy3.jpg

The "B" is in the appropriate position under the serial number. I agree that the "halo" is not the result of stamping but may be from wear or contact with something that removed the blue. I still am not totally comfortable with the slant of the "B" but am willing to accept it at face value. It appears to be a legitimate rare Luger and the condition attests to the hardships of ranch life. I am perplexed by the presence of the "B" suffix since this is obviously one of the elusive 7" Commercial pushbutton stock Lugers, but there is an awful lot about early Lugers that I freely admit I do not know. Maybe if I live another 50 years I will be a little better informed :) .

One Shattuck has for sale :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/10158b.jpg

I played around with the B to see more detail :

BTW...is the seemingly larger size of the "10" on the bottom edge of the TD lever "normal" ?

I noticed on # 10023B the "23" is pretty small on the TD lever. Then on # 10158B, there are no numbers on the TD lever.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/halo_or_not.jpg

I would have to agree with Albert that the B is original to the gun, or at least was applied very early in the life of the gun. If you look closely you will see some damage at the top left, this has occurred after the B was applied.

The serial numbers on the take down lever were applied with different stamps, if you look at the base of the 1 on the take down lever you see some flaring not present on the frame numbers. This is not necessarily a problem; the only way to check is to compare them to the stampings on the rest of the gun.

I have one concern however:

The zeros on the frame serial number are flat top and you would expect to see rounded ones, I would like to compare them to the serial numbers on the barrel. Could we get one more picture please of the barrel serial numbers?

I also have a question on safety levers, is this the normal style for such an early luger? This is mostly for my knowledge and not a criticism?

Interesting gun!

Vern

10010B
 

Hi Vern, here is the pic you ask.
Regards
Adrian

Vern,

If this Luger is part of the commercial numbering series (implying that the B was added later), the thumb safety lever would be expected to be type-2, although it is within approximately 200 guns from the changeover to type-3. The grip safety width is not diagnostic, as this number falls within the empty data range of the changeover from narrow to wide grip safeties.

As Albert notes, there are non-standard barrel lengths reported on Lugers near this sample.

--Dwight

I think the serial numbers are fine, the one on the take down lever was struck at an angle and then perhaps struck again, this caused the flaring and what looks to us as an enlarged font.

This â??Bâ?� is driving me crazy; does anyone else think they have seen such a â??Bâ?� before?
Maybe I have been looking at proof marks to long, but I am almost certain that I have. Could it be that we are missing a simple identification? We know itâ??s not a prototype â??Bâ?�, are there any other simple straight foreword explanations, I am going to keep looking.

Nice Unique Gun!

Vern