My 1900 American Eagle Test
 

This is my new AE Test. It is a beauty. Ill share the appraisal shortly. Give you a chance to see if I wasted my money on the appraisal.
Left side
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...left_small.jpg
Right side
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ight_small.jpg
The Eagle
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...agle_small.jpg

Safety
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...fety_small.jpg
Grip
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...rip1_small.jpg[IMG]
Serial Number
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...mall_copy2.jpg[IMG]
Pin
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...mall_copy1.jpg

erndog,

Hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but it is , in my opinion, almost 110% certain that your gun is a re-do. Nopatina, no holster wear, no nothing that would indicate issue to the Army of which I was a member for a long, long time.

Tom A

Eric, Esq, Ill bet anything yours is legit, Lets start with you most striking simularity, the grip, There exactly no wear, have the 3 color striations, as mine. I own nuber 6786, ITS a shame, There were test guns that were sent and then sold to individuals, There no wear, becaure there we some never distribted or stored away, Mine has never seen a holster, either, please send me you email adddress, and Tom, Ill send you mine, Rememer, you we also the one that claimed, my Aberchrombie & finch was fake, Even when I had a leading Leather Restorer in Chicago certified, it was legit.re legit. 'Thou shalt not covet the neiighbors luger, Please send me your closup for a profession evaluation, Snookem13@aol.com Tom ill send you my test, for comparison,

TOM, You forgot the RESTRAWING, another fake?

Not all correct
 

Unfortunately, the gun is not all correct. Before I got the appraisal, I suspected it but was still dissappointed when it was varified. It made me ask myself "why am I collecting?" I have no friends who collect so they are not impressed. In fact, they are probably more impressed with my new weed eater then my guns. I buy guns for one purpose, to take to the range and do with them what they were made for, Shoot.
The seller offered to re-sell for me but not buy back. I did not feel it was right to get him to sell it to another unsuspecting sole and I still like the gun, it is a true test and that does make it special for me, and it really is good looking.
Have not decided if I will take it to the range, but I am leaning that way.

Here is the appraisal.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...isal_small.jpg

I am working on replacing the grips and the seller did replace the magazine. This is the one he sent me. What do you think? Is it a 1900?
Mag
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...mag1_small.jpg

Mag
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...mag2_small.jpg

FIRST, Its a beautiful gun, The only thing missing that a tiny marking,I can see, is that the magazine bottom, is lacking resembling a 'flaming bomb' which you can replace, Please, Please wait a month, before you part with your pretty, Heck, I would buy it from you, if I havent already place a deposit on my next luger, Please send me an email, so we can talk in private. or call me Eric, Esq 772-336-5312

I would not care, it is still a Luger and a nice one to boot. Just keep it and enjoy it would be my suggestion.

Ernest, Your luger has all the attritbutes of an original US test piece, so I would bet the it is a test gun, and even if professionally restore by one of the best, it will continue to appreciate over the years. TH

Thanks all for the encouraging words. It is a beauty and I do plan on keeping it. Lugerdoc is sending me 1900 grips so at least it will be all 1900, as long as the new mag is authentic.

Hi EW,

Could you post other photos of your magazine...

1. Showing both sides of the full tubes.

2. Showing both sides of the wood (from side views) including the retainer pins.

BTW...when your dealings with your seller are 100% completed, it might help others if you shared whom that outfit is.

If this piece was sold as "factory original" to you and you have that in writing or emails and you paid a commensurate price, the seller should have done more that just agree to take it back on consignment sales.

A threat from you to "expose" their name publically and other legal actions might encourage them to grant you a full refund...but then the gun will just go back into inventory and sold to the next unfortunate...

Or you may decide to let this be your "lesson learned" gun. We all have them in our collections.

Folks that say they do not are lying, in denial, or have sold theirs off to the next unfortunate...:(

A certain M1902 FB Luger went that way between collector "friends" and was metioned here on the LF by its current owner in an old posting. The selling "friend" was even arrogant enough to offer to buy the $ 6500 gun back for $ 1000...what a "friend", huh ???

On your gun, one area that may typically indicate a rework is the area just below the toggle lock on the right frame rail :

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...bink/EWAE2.jpg

Here is one that fits my "comfort level" a bit more :

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...eframerail.jpg

Thanks Pete. I am out of town for a week but will post better pictures of mag when I get home. Regarding the seller, his name has been mentioned both pro and con her before and you even warned me about him. Since others have voiced negative opinions about him, I will let sleeping dogs lie. My desire for a AE Test just got the best of me and it is a good lesson learned, and I can comfortably live with the out come.

Hi EW,

Then the best thing is to take her out to the range and enjoy years of shooting pleasures...!!!

I take my "lesson learned" gun out to the range 2-3 times a year and shoot 200-300 round each time. Sort of makes me forget the money-thing, all together...

:cheers:

erndog, who was the seller? The line "I'll resell it for you" sounds all too familiar. If the pistol was misrepresented to you, it works to the best interest of all collectors to know who sold it.

Please email me, so I can show you, my wooden grips, several strizations, a most beautiful wood you find or nor seen elsewhere, My advice, put it under your bed, Im sure your opinion will change, I havent see one,so clean not so nice,as mine, ever posted and if and when you decide to sell, drop me a line, Eric 'snookem13@aol.com'

AE Test Luger #6458 was listed for sale by Randy Bessler in Dec '97 and I did not record the condition. It subsequently was offered by Ralph Shattuck in '99 and the condition was listed as "very good" with a price of $2000.

Eric, I just took closeup of the wooden grip, that are almost identical. I woud gladly supply my pictures, I havennt seen such beautiful grain and color, even on my 1920 Luger Carbine, in 9mm

I have to correct tom, with his coNclusion, that your gun has been reblued. for lack of holster wear, Some never saw a holster, Most of the one chosen by Bannerman, Never were issued, and were later sold as is, those extras, were sold to various individuals, and stored years to be passed on a sold, Tom, Mine is a prime example, and Ive proved, at least one holster, showing minimal wear,AND BECAUSE THEY A BEAUTIFUL EXAMPLES OF AMERICAN HISTORY, THERE CAN BE A FEW OF THE THOUSAND SURVIVED, UNSCAWED.

oNE LAST COMPLIMENT, Your photography is surperb, Debbie just bought me a new kodak share, 10 zoom,Maybe else where, could you relay some hints

EW,
You paid for an appraisal that said the gun was worth $2500 TO $3500 as a restoration. You know what you paid for the gun and if it's in that ball park you did OK. If however, you paid much more than that you really should do something about getting your money back. I agree with Pete regarding steps you can take. Don't let some SOB intimidate you into keeping something that is not worth what you paid. Screw the theory about Luger school being expensive, you have the evidence in hand with an appraisal to go after the scum sucking low life that sold it to you.
Just my 2 cents,
Tom

Eric,

You need to do some more research. Your statements concerning the issue or non-issue of the test guns is simply incorrect. The disposition of those guns once the Army recieved them is well documented.

Tom A

Here is another photo I "lifted" off Bob Simpson's site...showing this right toggle lock area in much finer detail :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...lock_copy1.jpg

Eric,

Since we hear so much about your new M1900 Test piece, could you post up a similar photo of this area on your gun ?

NO PROBLEM, We are al in luck, Debbie bought me a 10x Kodak camera, known for closeups, I still have problems, uploading, so send me an email or message so i can send tou any particlar, be right back

Thanks Pete. I assume you are talking about the area immediately below the lock. Specifically, are you refering to the blued frame part or the straw part, or both.

EW,

Lets be clear about the "not all correct" aspect of this gun

This is a model 1900 U.S. Teat Eagle, found in the Bannerman auction range. As long as the numbers are all matching (and perhaps even if they weren't) it is "correct". The reblue simply makes it a reblue.

As a Test Eagle it is worth a not-inconsiderable amount, even reblued. I strongly recommend that you do not take this gun out and shoot it. The chance of breaking a numbered part is not one to be taken lightly; the flat recoil spring is known to be delicate after 107 years, and it is nearly impossible to find a replacement if broken. Such a circumstance will reduce its value considerably.

--Dwight

Great Advice, also wipe it down with a cotton cloth or white cotton sock You may have some acidic residue, that with time, will bear its ugly thumbprint, You owe to history, it made it this far, in its beautiful condition, but one drop of inattendness, cant be forgotten.

EW,

It is the faint "white lines" around how the toggle lock indent piece is machined and pressed into and then soldered into the right frame rail.

It is silver-soldered in place and on most (BUT not all...) M1900's, the area of the solder lines does not take bluing well.

If I do not see the faint white lines, I do not immediately conclude the gun is refinished...just that one area may not be right and other "tell" areas would need a closer look as well.

BTW...I like the "age spots" showing on the strawed parts of the Simpson LTD photo I posted up...

Grabbed more M1900 photos off the Simpsons LTD web site to look at the right side toggle locks :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...le_locks_1.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...le_locks_2.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...le_locks_3.jpg

Good Work, Thats exactly what I was trying ti show on mine thse two little parallelllel lines that are also evedent on my test luger.

Pete, One correction. The frame part of the toggle lock is NOT sodered in place, it fits into a tight dove tail. I have installed several of these (have this part available new @$40) and have even had a dove tail cut into the frame of a M1906, for a customer's sprecial project. TH

Hi Tom,

Are your sure ? If just pressed into place, why would the bluing not take across all the metal ?

Also, here is a posting Ron Wood did back on 9/11/2006 over on Jan's Gunboards which lead me to believe the part was soldered in place, after being pressed in place.

Here is a link to that discussion :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp...ilver+soldered

" Pete,

I may be missing something, but I do not see the difference. The toggle lock in the toggle knob is strawed in both examples. The toggle lock detent on the frame is silver soldered into the "T" slot in the frame, and the outline of the inset is clearly visible in both photos. The fit of the detent into the frame is very precise, so the outline of the silver solder is not always obvious or clearly defined. That doesn't mean that the H-H carbine hasn't been refinised (it almost certainly has because the Stoeger markings appear pantographed) but the toggle lock isn't a dead giveaway. Your efforts to obtain additional photos are appreciated, even if H-H doesn't think so! BTW, if you wouldn't mind, I would like to take you up on your offer of a high resolution photo of the Stoeger markings. Thanks
Ron

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it is made after 1918...it is a reproduction. "

Eric's photos from a previous posting :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/erics_gun_1.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/erics_gun_2.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/erics_gun_3.jpg

Here is a scan of the part in question.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/togglelock.jpg

It may be a bit difficult to make out, but this is not the usual angled dovetail. The cuts are straight, almost making a tab-in-slot sort of insertion.

I have to wonder if the part is not an extreme press-fit, and the effect we see on the guns is simply the same kind of compression effect as halo from stamping? If it was silver solder I wouldn't expect to see any evidence beyond the actual part juncture.

Maybe Lugerdoc can answer this, when the toggle lock is removed, does it simply press out, or does it require heat to melt silver solder?

--Dwight

Eric,

Here is a photo of the similar area on a Borchardt pistol that was refinished and I think the "lines" re-created in a nefarious attempt to make it look more original...

The Borchardt was from a recent RIA auction house on-line catalong posting.

So...A lesson here might be : Such lines being present on a gun may not confirm a gun's factory-original finish.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...orchardt_5.jpg

New Mag
 

This is the replacement Mag that was exchanged for the 1920 mag that came with the AE Test. Any opinions as to its validity for 1900?http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...mag1_small.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...mag2_small.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...mag3_small.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...mag4_small.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...mag5_small.jpg

Toggle Lock picture
 

Pete, this is the toggle lock of my AE Test. Not sure what I am learning from this as it pertains to a re-blue gun. \
Thanks

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...rtog_small.jpg

Vern,

From the variety of photos I 'borrowed' off the Simpsons LTD site, I was trying to show the variation in the extent of the "lines" one can see on factory original rust-blued Lugers.

In some extreme cases, both "lines" are very fuzzy and wide in parts. In others the shape of the "lines" become very narrow and sharp.

Ron Wood has even mentioned in a past posting seeing almost no "lines" on guns in his collection that are factory-finish as well.

I would still support the "hunch" that some silver soldering occurs to hold that piece in place on the frame rail and that a varying-degree of sanding occurred at DWM before the bluing treatment.

As some of the more high end, commercial guns such as carbines and presentation pieces may have gotten more time in the pre-blue prep. stages of getting a gun ready for bluing, those "lines" are less pronounced.

I think the degree of width and fuzziness one sees from gun-to-gun at these "lines" makes sense if a varying degree of residual silver solder along the brazed joints was left during sanding/polishing prep. and that the silver solder left did not take the blueing process as the surrounding areas of metal.

On refinished pieces, I see one or both "lines" totally sanded away to the point where no silver solder remains and the more modern-day re-blue covers it more completely.

The "refinished" Borchardt in the photo I posted above is a pretty obvious attempt by someone to "add back" the lines...probably with a few strokes of a very narrow and fine jeweler's metal file.

If one follows the idea that this part is only pressed into place on the frame rail (i.e. not soldered into place...), how would one explain the wide variation in shape, width, and fuzziness one sees on these two "lines" from gun to gun with factory original finishes ?

Pete, thanks for the follow-up. Did you have a chance to look at the mag pictures posted just above the toggle lock pictures?

Hi Vern,

I liked the new magazine...easily one worth $ 250 or more.

Hard to tell if for a M1900 commercial or a M1906 commercial...I do not think it matters.

I have one just like it...figured one day I might add a Swiss BUG-proofed commercial Luger...

Thanks Pete for the response. Now what I am looking for is a nice 1902. But they do not come cheap.

iNSTEAD of guessing, can someone succintly, and consisly, point at what exactle the feel is wrong, Im sure most of you have never held in there hand a test luger, that was used as salesman samples,Theres no doubt that the luger, i purchased from Ralph is one of those pieces, Yes, there is some wear in parts involving the toggle, I cant see how one can judge a luger he never held. What worse by far is the unproffessional treatment, a FEW of YOU, have acted, The same people who swore my aberchrombie and fincl leather case was a repo, even after I sent it to a noted leather repair house, that does all the southerbies, I have a receipt, in which nowherre is mention mine is a repo, and after our own expert determined my US test holster legit along with my test luger, my dear critic, south of the borders continue on belittle anything he doest own My hats off to those upon whose opinion, one can rely, Ed, Ron, Dwight, etc, You are the true historians

DONT FIRE SUCH A BEAUTIFUL PIECE OF AMERICAN HISTORY, please