byfs worth more?
 

Why are byf Lugers with walnut grips worth more? They certainly are not rare but always seemed to be priced higher than dated S/42s or Code 42s.

They are worth more because after switching out the grips for black bakelite they become the fabled "black widow".

George is probably right. I personally prefer the wood grips, they feel and look better.

When I was a kid I so preferred the walnut grips that I threw the bakelite grips away. It didn't matter whether they were black plastic or brown.

Hi Matt,
* Not that I believe or offer a premium for each item below, let me add a few other points beyond the grip considerations offered above:
- Other than the few '41-42 code Lugers assembled, which command a premium onto themselves, the byf's are the only Luger to display a "P.08" on the frame.
- Based on Gibson and some antecdotal reports, the metal composition, metal formation, heat treatment and finishing processes had evolved to a high art by the end of Luger production. A "bright salt blue" byf P.08 displays a wonderful, rich, Mauser unique, military finish which can be a joy to behold.
- The byf's were made later than the S/42 & 42 codes; hence, they had less time to be used/abused in the War and succeeding years.
- These were the last "hand fitted" Army accepted 9mmP design. The P.38's contained more sheet metal parts, were assembled using more mass production methods, more stringent interchangeability requirements(looser tolerances), more distributed detail part manufacturing, and under more war time duress (quantity, bombing, stategic metals availability, shortages, etc).
- Other than the '40-42 code & '41-42 code Lugers, the byf's were issued with the best P.08 magazines (122/fxo coded mags) ever produced.

* I'm sure Frank can think of a few more I've missed; but, I think the grips are only one factor in the "byf" mystique. Besides, what other manufacturing code can you have both a P.08 & P.38 made in the same year for the German Army??

You all make some good points, although I personally would not pay more for a byf, but luckily, I don't have to because I have a byf 42 with an original holster and extra mag that I bought six years ago for about half of what they are selling for now. It still amazes me how much Lugers have gone up in the last six to seven years.

I have been trying to get one to match my byf42 p38. If I just put out the amount of money earlier that I am willing to put out today I may have gotten a couple byf42's.

Jerry

Ironic how things change. When I bought my 41 byf ten years ago the seller apologized for its ugly black grips and I didn't like them either. But for $500 I couldn't pass it up as it was in near mint condition and I knew I'd never find a nicer Luger. And soon later I loved the way those black grips matched the deep black blue finish.

Thanks for those excellent points RockinWR, and I hope Frank does have a few more!

I'll add one that occurred to me: 1941 was the year the United States entered WWII. Since I have a 41 byf it would be nice to have a mint 1917 DWM to go along with it!

If you really want a 1917, I am about to sell two of them. Both are artilleries, one all matching full rig and the other an all matching pistol alone. The latter is a Red Nine.

What do you want for them ??

Must do that in the "For Sale" area or privately. I will PM to you.

Thanks for the heads up George but I'd better pass. Artilleries are out of my budget right now. But good luck with your sales!

Hey Bob, good stuff!! As usual!! The only thing I can add is that the Germans invaded Russia on June 22, 1941. So I expect a bunch of 41 byf Lugers were destined for the Russian Front. The monthly production of lugers during this time was about 11,000 per month. Tough to say how many went east and how many went west!! Since the west was pretty secure, I would guess a bunch went east!!

Maybe the number of survivors was pretty small!!

All,
* Good one Frank. We sure do see a bunch of DDR and Ruskie "X" marked byf's don't we.

* Here's a few more:
- If you want a "WaA135" marked P.08, you'd better buy a ....Ta Da....byf toggle marked Luger.
- If you'd like an original barrelled WWII Luger w/out the barrel diameter marking.....TaDa....
- Blank, black plastic bottom magazines most likely were issued w/.........TaDa......

* So far I tapped the easy ones. Anymore??

Respectfully,
Bob:D

That's an interesting point, Frank. We know there were a lot of byfs made but they really aren't as common as you'd expect. You may have the answer there, sure makes sense that 2nd half 41 and 42 byfs would go to the eastern front. My 41's SN is 7335u so maybe it was produced in early June just before the invasion and headed West. Anyway it saw little or no action, doubt it has fired 50 rounds and is very stiff like a new gun.

That could be an interesting bit of data in the SN databases - overall condition and barrel wear. A chance it might show patterns... but probably too much work and likely would be inconclusive.

I would never bet against Frank's opinion if it deals in Mausers :)

I agree, Ed!

* The OKH insisted on a 3 letter Mfg. code in 1941. That resulted in the only P.08 bearing a 3 letter, secret Mfg. Code on its toggle as........TaDa.......

* Keep this up and the "Black Widow" moniker is passe'. They will come to only be known as the........" "'s.

Regards,

Bob, I would never bet against you either

:cheers:

* Thank Ed !! Just an avid student @ Luger U., as are many.
* Now when it comes to Simson's, Professor Ed, you got my marker.
Regards,

The byf's are also the last 08's to come out of the Mauser factory. To me that makes them attractive.

Hey Guys, just some more thoughts.

* How long was the troop build up before the Russian invasion?
* How long was the supply chain from Mauser to the troops?
* How large was the Luger stockpile?

If one were to ASSUME:

* The stockpile was short!
* The build up was 3 months!
* The supply chain was 3 months!

Then, the new troops heading for the Russian front in late March or early April 1941 were supplied with Lugers from late December 1940 or early January 1941. Granted, some troops already had pistols or were already near the Russian border (Poland) or were transferred from the already occupied countries.

No way to know what the real story is, but it's fun to speculate!!!

:D

I don't think that there was any concern about or concentration of Lugers for Operation Barbarossa. The Germans were arming their forces both from within and with masses of captured weapons. The Mauser factory was still building P08's for export in 1941 and 1942.

I bought a copy of "Standard catalog of Luger" last week at the NRA National Firearms Museum. For each Luger listing it gives a rarity rating. The byfs are rated as uncommon. Maybe many did go to the Russian front.

I wondered about that too when I saw byfs listed as "Uncommon" in the Standard Catalog of Luger. With the number originally produced you'd think Davis would have said "Common" instead. Frank's probably on to something there!

Please read this review http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ghlight=aarron before putting too much stock in what is printed in The Standard Catalog of Luger. 126,000 byf 41 and 113,000 byf 42 cannot be considered "uncommon" in anybody's book.

--Dwight

bb

I wouldn't think they would be uncommon based upon the number of them that I see for sale on the internet, but maybe they are not as common as some of the other models.

239,000 Lugers might seem like a lot, but how many survived the war and if you spread those out amoung the Luger collectors and they begin to look a little uncommon...

Well forgetting the book's errors, I still think Frank's on to something about the Russian front. For all we know the Russians now use byf receivers as tuning forks!