Grandpa's gun
 

I borrowed this gun from my grandpa to take to "show and tell" at school. It is very interesting of course. Can you tell me about it. There are a lot of confusing markings on it. Please help.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...IIstuff002.jpg

Whats up with the brass plate?

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...IIstuff013.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...IIstuff008.jpg
????

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...IIstuff007.jpg
"94"

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...IIstuff009.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...IIstuff010.jpg
Vickers, thats British right?

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...IIstuff012.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...I/DSC03507.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...I/DSC03516.jpg

Authentic WWII eyecandy will be shown if you reply (dagger, Jap arisaka 99, SS officer's crucifix)

one of just under 10,ooo lugers ordered by the dutch west indies. Due to embargo, they were gathered parts, put together by Vivkers, so vickers did not makes the parts, DWM did. They had unit (brass plates) on one side that showed the unit. In addition there are dutch acceptance markings on it and alsothe word RUST for the safety are the primariy areas to tell a dutchie from all others.''


ed

Value? Does it being a "dutchie" raise value or lower? What does NP stand for?

Sorry I'm a Luger noob, DWM?

raises value. is it all matcning?

the NP I am unsure of.


The brass plate is aunit marking...

ed

What do u mean "all matching". How can I tell if it is "all matching"?

side w/out plate has replacement grip.

Your Grandpa has quite a desirable Luger. It was made as part of a contract order from the Dutch in 1919, and delivered sometime around 1921 or 1922.. Because this was right at the end of WWI, DWM was not permitted to manufacture 9mm pistols. So the contract was filled by Vickers, Ltd, of England. Oddly enough, the Lugers were assembled and finished by Vickers from parts provided by DWM!

Actually only around 6000 Vickers Lugers were made for the Dutch. A few low serial numbered guns were made by Vickers for company executives and promotional purposes, so for a long time it was thought that the guns were numbered from 1 to a little over 10,000. In reality, the Vickers Dutch contract guns picked up with a starting serial number 1 higher than the last Luger provided by DWM, so the serial number range is actually from 4182 to 10181. Your Grandfatherâ??s Luger was made toward the end of production.

The brass plate indicates the unit to which it was issued and weapon number. This Luger was issued to the 4th Company of the Left Half of the 21st Infantry Battalion and is weapon number 17 in the companyâ??s inventory.

These guns were used in the Dutch East Indies (modern day Indonesia) and saw hard usage in a tropical climate; therefore they are usually in pretty rough condition. They are frequently mismatched and have replacement grips. Your Grandfatherâ??s Luger is one of the better examples.

Since the gun was assembled in England, the markings on the bottom of the barrel are British proofs and NP stands for â??Nitro Proofâ?� indicating it was tested with smokeless powder. "Rust" is the Dutch word for "safe" and is pronounced "roost".

As promised...

Jap Arisaka type 99
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...stuff001-1.jpg

German dress dagger. Oxidized Ivory! Tarnished Silver!
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...I/DSC03517.jpg

Swastika and German Eagle. Leaf detail.
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...I/DSC03519.jpg

Arisaka bayonet
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...I/DSC03522.jpg

G-pa's dogtag and SS officer's crucifix. Belt part from German officer belt. "Gott mit uns"= God with us.
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...I/DSC03523.jpg

Skull and crossbones denotes SS officer.
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...I/DSC03524.jpg

Wow, thanks Ron!



NOTE: Arisaka is from Great Uncle in PTO. Rest from Grandpa in ETO. He (G-pa) has his dad's mess cup thingy and dogtag from WWI. Neato! G-pa was in 9th Armored Division. He walked across the Rhine River on the Ludendorf bridge at Remagen!

Value?

Will,

Last Vickers I saw that was for sale in the past few months was with FGS, Inc. out of Ohio. I think their asking price was $ 3750...granted probably a bit high as they are a retail/dealer.

I think theirs was in a bit nicer in condition that yours, but yours is still very nice.

My guess on your Luger...$ 3200 or so...

Your gun seems to have some active spots of rust & pitting. Some cleaning and lubrication would be advisable so it does not get any worse.

BTW...here is a snapshot of my Dutch KOL from the 1928 contract...same/similar unit plate as yours...

I bought this one from Member Ron Wood a few years back...it has ties to my father...having served in this same unit...when he was a young fellow in Indonesia...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/peteskol.jpg

The dagger is an Heer or Army dagger. If the the blade has not been sharpened, about $400, maybe a little more. It looks a little rusty on the outside.

Will,

Re : The right side wooden grip.

It may be the coarse checkering of a Javanese arsenal replacement. Can you look to see if you see the stamping of "GS" along the inside surface of the right grip ?

If yes...it is still a nice grip to have on this Luger...

I have lightened-up two of your photos to some more details of your grips :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload..._vickers_1.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload..._vickers_2.jpg


BTW...can you describe or show a photo of the bottom of your magazine's wooden bottom. Is there a flat metal tab inletted into the bottom of the wood ? If yes, you might be lucky to have a Dutch magazine as well. Those sell for over $ 300 just by themselves...

Here is a photo of the magazine on my Luger :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...l11a_copy2.jpg

A very nice example of a Dutch KNIL luger.

The KNIL "Koninklijk Nederlands Indisch Leger" (Royal Dutch Indonesian Army) was a colonial army with a catch. Many members were local Indonesians. As the Dutch were on the good guys side during WW2, this is one of the few service Lugers that was used on the allied side, until the Indonesian islands were overrun by the Japanese, who confiscated and re-used many Dutch lugers. As a result, American GI's captured former Dutch lugers during the pacific war.

The brass plate shows regiment info. A very good book 'The Dutch Luger' was written about these guns.

Vickers had ties with DWM, the gun's original manufacturer. Members of the Berlin Loewe family had seats in the boards of Loewe, DWM and Vickers. In fact, when one of the Loewe brothers died, his seat was taken over by a member of the Vickers family. As a result of this common interest, DWM also produced the famous Maxim/Vickers machinegun. So when DWM needed a favor done just after WW1, Vickers was prepared to step in and organize the delivery of the pistols to the Netherlands.

Ron: Slight correction: rust is pronounced exactly as the English rust, it only differs in meaning. It can best be translated as the military phrase 'at ease'. It also means 'rest'.

The crown/W is the Dutch royal property mark. The W stands for the Dutch Queen Wilhelmina, during her reign the gun was accepted for service.

Thank you Gerben. I thought that English was the only language that pronounced "u" as "uh" rather than the way most of the rest of the world pronounces it as "oo".

Pete-No, I don't see any metal inlete, it doesn't look like yours. Do I have to take the grip off to see "GS"

RGARRETT-The blade is fairly sharp, but I don't think it has been sharpened.

Thanks for all the help. I know this is the "Luger Forum" but can any of you guys help with the Arisaka. I was able to figure out (from the markings on it) that is was made at the Kokura Arsenal in Tokyo between 1939 and 1945. Serial numbers from 0-99,999. Series 24. Serial #=55419. Still has 16 petal crysanthemum. Again thanks for all your help. I'm sure my grandpa will love to know everything about his Luger.

willyboy,

The presence of the skull and crossbones on the crucifix is a fairly common Christian motif. It has zero connection with the SS.

Tom A

I don't mean to argue but my research says otherwise.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...y5/WWII/SS.png

Your illustration shows a SS insignia for sure, but that in no way makes Tom's statement false. The crucifix that you have has zero connection with the SS...don't argue. Your research needs to go a little deeper and consider other origins of the skull and crossbones symbol.

OK.

Well why would there be a skull and crossbones on a crucifix? Jus wondering.

The Skull and Crossbones is a reference to John's Gospel 18:19. It is found on many vintage Crucifix's from all over the world. Here are links to a couple of exaples similar to yours.

http://www.rubylane.com/shops/victor.../04111?gbase=1
http://www.goantiques.com/detail,192...source=VYZ4474

Willyboy,

Christ was crucified on a hill named Golgatha. That translates to "The place of the skull"; throught time, images of the crucifixin have included skulls and other human remains in the background or foreground. Golgotha was a place of execution, not just for Christ but for anyone the local Roman authorities decided to execute. Bodies were left in the open and animals undoubtedly made meals out of them, leaving bones as remnants.

Tom A

Yep Tom you are correct... I saw 18:19 several times on a search, not sure how that ties in to the Skull. Interesting question though.. I was curious myself

Thankx guys.

yes, I should have been more exact Ron, the Dutch Indies did order 10,000 lugers, but that is total over the years, not 10,000 Vickers.

The Vickers marked lugers were a continuation of the DWM guns made if I remember correctly. ;), so that is what I meant.


Ed

Willyboy Ok is the answer

Will,

Yes, you need to remove the grip screw at the bottom of the right grip to lift off, carefully, the wooden grip.

If you see the "GS" stramping in the wood on the inside surface, that right grip is one made locally in Indonesia.

Removal of the left grip is a bit tricky...as one can break off the sculpted cutout of the wood around the bottom of the thumb safety lever.

To do it, remove the left grip screw and while pushing and holding down the magazine release buttom, lift the bottom of the left grip up enough and then slide it down along the grip strap...mostly parallel to the grip strap.

If you are too agreesive and jst lift the left grip up of the frame, you could break that little piece of wood along the bottom of the thumb safety lever.

If you take the left wooden grip off, let us know what stampings you might see along its interior surface...

I can help a bit with the rifle. If you could post a close up of the serial number area, that would help more. But with the info you provided, that 24th series Kokura would possibly have been made in early 1944, probably without the monopod although it still used a monopod type rear band. I cannot tell from the photo, but it appears the rear sight is the type without the anti-aircraft fold down wings. Check the bolt and extractor to see if the 3 digit serial numbers match the last 3 of the receiver serial number, it should but some do not due to bolts being mixed at some point. Look at the mum on the receiver and see if it has any strike or punch marks on it, if not then its an untouched mum which is always a sought after thing. The cleaning rod is missing from the rifle. The bayonet appears to be the standard Type 30 bayonet, it should have a manufactures mark on the blade.

Next to the crucifix, the Gott Mit Uns piece, is actually the center of an Imperial German Army belt buckle, from the 1914-1918 First World War. I would guess Grandpa found the buckle somewhere and pried the center out of it for a souvenier.

There is absolutely no historical evidence that the ss ever authorized a deaths head on a Crucifix. There is however an extrodinary amount of evidence to the effect that they would not have.

Serial # is 55419. Yes, you are correct, no anti-air sight. Sorry I'm not very knowledgeable with guns, what is the extractor. On bolt=515. Mum is perfectly intact. I know how it is the sign of the emperor and it was scratched of at the end of the war. The bayonet is a hooked quillion and was made at the same arsenal as the rifle.

The extractor is the long metal piece that runs down the side of the bolt. It should also have a serial number stamped at the rear of it. It appears the bolt is mismatched to the rifle. Too bad but rather common.

Im in the antique business,and come across many many crosses just like the one that was posted, with the skull and all. You wouldnt believe how many times ive heard similar stories that the skull means it was a Nazi item. As its been pointed out numerous times here, it has nothing to do with the Nazis. Also, the Nazis werent the most religious people. They used some elements of Christianity, but they made their own "religion" of their ideology. They certainly didnt make special Nazi SS officer crosses.

Yes that is for sure, haha. Hitler was god to the SS, and I doubt hitler would want it any other way. There is a few different types of skull symbols used by the nazi's during the war.. People have to understand the skull and crossbones as a symbol isnt a nazi invention! Pirates used it aswell :-)

It's been well over five years since I first did any research on my grandpa's luger. I'm thankful for all of your help in figuring some things out about this gun. I have never attempted to clean or restore it, but I still wish to. My grandpa passed away about 3 years ago and my grandma is in ailing health now. Selfishly, I hope that the interest I have in this gun would give me some sort of claim to, although that is pure speculation. If I decide to try to restore this gun, I will post updates here.

Thanks again.
WB

WB, I opened the thread and said, ohhh, a dutch gun (I like them) and then saw it was from long ago :)

Remember, usually not a restore, just clean her up is best :)

The dagger is, indeed, Heer (army) although the grip is not ivory. It's a celluloid type product. It may have darkened some but may also have been colored when new. The blade should not be sharp. There were several dozen different makers of them and should have a makers mark near the hilt. They were not weapons of war and carried with dress uniforms on ceremonial occasions.

A couple of things to consider:

I have my Grandfather's Luger and I would never part with it.

I would never "restore" it because that would remove most of the history and collector value. That matters little to me.

I would never "restore" it because things are only original once. While the appearance may be improved, it would not longer have the original finish. That matters somewhat to me.

I would never "restore" it because it would cease to be how my Grandfather left it. That matters most to me.


If you have the honor of receiving your Grandfather's things, I'd recommend leaving things as they are.

WillyBoy,

It would be wise to stabilize the rust occurring on your pistol. You can do that by using oiled bronze or steel wool, then properly lubricating it with a preserving gun oil (like RemOil or something similar). This should be done after carefully removing the grips so that you can see those metal surfaces, and not get the oil onto the grips.

The plate is likely softer than steel, so be quite careful not to scratch it.

Your pistol is in such rare and good condition that it doesn't need restoration. Refinishing it would destroy it's history and a good portion of it's value.

Make sure your grandmother knows of your interest, and commitment to preserve it as a family heirloom.

Marc

Amen with that statement. That way you can always look at the gun and think about the times you had with your grandfather. As time passes youll respect that thought and be glad you left it the way your grandfather had it. And the story to tell with it.