Virginia shooting
 

..

Thank you tac....this is just horrid....the poor parents

This is similar to the senseless tragedies in Iraq. A madman willing to sacrafice his own life is virtually unstoppable. There are thousands of places in America where people are defensless against a determined killer. It was only a matter of time before something on this scale would occour. Police response was too little too late for 30 of the victems. Only another person with a self defense weapon, a gun, could possibly have stopped this.
One can only react in utter horror at the act of a deranged madman.
This will add new fuel to the fire of Democrats wanting to strip away 2nd amendment freedoms but there is only one thing responsible. The triggerman.
My heart aches for those who lost their loved ones. Jerry Burney

Sad, but true
 

Sad, but true, Jerry. It illustrates the fallacy of gun control. Only the law-abiding will obey. And thereby become prey to the law breakers.

Jim

If only a faculty member or staff had a concealed weapons permit, this would be a footnote.

I have many friends with children at Tech; I pray they are not among the victims.

Tom A

This is a tragic day to say the least.

One of the news networks is pointing out that students at VT are not allowed to carry on campus even though it is legal for college students to carry on campuses in that state.

I pulled this graphic off another site but it didn't take long for someone to make it.

Chris

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g1.../vtech9523.jpg

An odd thing I noticed about this instance is the lack of publicity on the shooter.

In the past, the news media would have been out intervewing everyone out to 8th degree and all neighbors witin a 20 mile radius, etc.

In this instance, the authorities will not admit (insofar I have seen) even to the name of the person who did the shooting.

Lew, I'm sure that the public is curious about the motivation of the killer, but since some of these unbalanced individuals crave the infamy of their deeds, I say why give them the publicity, which might encourage others to copy their deeds. TH

I just heard former FBI Profiler Clint Van Zant say something interesting on the morning news. When asked "Why do these incidents happen at schools?" He said, "These are cowardly acts. The shooters are cowardly weak people who are looking for a target rich environment. And know that their victims won't have the ability to offer any form of defense. They have nothing to fear"

I'm sadden to learn of this tragedy, and my thoughts and prayers go out to the families of all those involved.

I'm also sadden to think how we're in for another round of legislation by politicians all too eager to grab the spotlight and work on the peoples' emotions. They'll want yet more "gun control" because it's always easier to identify and attack the symptoms than the causes.

Something is horribly wrong with an individual who'll express his personal pain, anger, frustration, and the loss that may have caused it upon the community in such a manner as this. Sure the availability of handguns and ammunition may have made his actions possible, but this possibility has existed for generations here. There must be dozens if not hundreds of songs that deal specifically with this young man's kind of loss, and sometimes they do have tragic endings like murder and suicide. But not of these proportions we're witnessing today, and not upon strangers who have nothing to do with the affair.

There's something horribly wrong with a society that keeps repeatedly producing such individuals. Individuals who feel so alone, so isolated, so disconnected from the community and society that make their lives possible, that they can strike out so violently against what after all is an extension of themselves, their family and home. Now, many may want to decry such an accusatory statement as mine. Say that I'm trying to take responsibility for an individual's actions and spread it too far and freely (even liberally). But I say that restricting the blame to only the individual who has committed these atrocious acts is just as unknowing, unthinking, and unwise as only finding blame with the availability of the means he used.

And going off and distributing the blame to a whole litany of things like; the public school systems, the media, video games and so and so forth; isn't going to get to the heart of the matter either. There may very well be problems with all of these, but they're just more symptoms. We have to get down to something much more fundamental to all the many features and facets of our society and culture; the very values that determine everything else. These are reflected in the customs we practice in our daily lives, in all our institutions both public and private, and in the very language we use when we speak.

Well said Herbz, What a horrible thing... I just saw this paragraph on msnbc news.

A federal law enforcement official said Tuesday he had been told by other federal law enforcement officials that the two guns recovered in the shooting had had their serial numbers scraped off. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the information had not been announced.

Local media is reporting the perp was a permanent resident alien, likely Korean.

Tom A

A horrible, sad event of unbelievable proportion!

Already the govts of England and Australia are badmouthing US gun laws. English citizens are used to not owning guns. In the 1500s or whenever, only the nobility owned guns, serfs could not. Don't know that situation has changed since then (the regular folks owning guns).

Australia? A recent article in the NRA American Rifleman noted the Australian Minister agency responsible for gun control admitted the collecting of guns did NOT reduce gun crimes in their country.

Unfortunately, this will enable anti-gun people to make guns an election issue. I do believe strict enforcement of current gun laws. Today the news reported this creep had an invoice in his backpack for purchasing a gun. I recently read there is an estimated 70 or 80 MILLION guns in the US. Do the anti-gun people believe all these guns could be confiscated with new guns laws? Give me a break. It's going to be a "Cindy Sheean" syndrome as a result of this situation.

In any case, it is a horrendous event.

I saw that also Tac, yet another Testament to the bravery and selflessness of the Greatest Generation.

Tac, You might be overly sensitive. Comparing British restrictions to American gun laws is perfectly natural. Serf, Vassal, All subjects, servants of the King or his retainers. The British are the ones responsible for this social segragation. It is a part of history and to object to it's legitimate usage is to reject history and social perspective relative to British rule. You would be right to reject the slur, Not accept it...

However, I believe here Citizen might be the more appropriate word. You see, you are probably not a serf. A serf is an agricultural worker in the Feudal system. Actually a slave in Latin. So, unless you have a garden your Wife makes you grow....

Jerry Burney

Tac, Well done! I know you to be loyal and well trusted but it rankles many in America to be called a slave. I believe that was one of the main reasons many voluntarily came to America..To avoid that unpleasantness. Those who came unvoluntarily, well....We both have colorful histories that we can look back on and finds parts we can be proud of.
Like many American veterans I run into here, I thank you for your service to God and Country sir. Cheerrs! Jerry Burney

Tac:

My reference using the word "serf" was meant to describe the people in that period of time. The nobility legally owned guns for among other things, hunting on their lands while the common folk could not own guns much less hunt.

It was not meant to demean any person or group of people. If I had lived during the period, I would be classified as a "serf", i.e., a common man. That's what many of the common folk were called during that period of time was it not?

Although I do not know British gun laws, I understand from various sources that those laws are more stringent than here in the US. Please correct me if I am wrong!

The world once again wants to "help" the USA in passing more laws that restrict gun ownership in the US. Also, many people is the US and for that matter the world, want us to not write, speak or otherwise use terms and/or names that are part of history....they want to rewrite it a "little bit" in the history books. I digress here and will not post of it further.

Once again, this incident is horrendous and many involved will never recover from it.

"If just ONE person had been armed, he could have been stopped.

tac"

Amen!

Tom A.

Tac & Tom A,

While it's true that faculty and students with CC permits are barred at Virginia Tech from carrying a weapon on campus, had that not been the case may not have necessarily made a difference. The shooting was still in progress when several guns were present on the campus and more rushing onto campus every minute. All were in the possession of people who probably had more training in how to use their weapon than most citizens with a CC permit.

It wouldn't be proper for me or any of us who were not there to pass any kind of judgment or offer criticism of the law enforcement professionals who responded to the shooting at Virginia Tech; and I don't want my statements to be so misconstrued. I believe it takes a special kind of person, with a lot of special training, to rush with a weapon into a situation with an unknown number of shooters in the midst of scores or possibly even hundreds of innocent civilians.

So, just because a person can put 15 out of 18 pistol rounds into the 7 ring on a silhouette target at 7 yards (as is required for a CC permit here in Ohio), doesn't mean they can apply that amount of skill and training in every situation that might call for it.

HerbZ

I do not recall any mention in this thread that passed judgment on or offered criticism of the police.

Consequently I do not understand your comment as to that aspect.

lew1,

I was covering my own butt, for where I wrote: "The shooting was still in progress when several guns were present on the campus and more rushing onto campus every minute." Some of the commentators I've seen on TV have questioned why it was that the police were hunkered down there behind cars and phone poles while the shooting was still in progress inside the building. I didn't want to be taken as being on that side of things for anything, and I didn't for a moment think that anyone else here was either.

To be more plain spoken, I've nothing but the greatest of respect for all men and women in law enforcement, and most especially for those who take the tough choice and training to become part of a SWAT team. My main point was that this tragic situation called for more than regular police patrol personnel, let alone, as others have seemed to suggest, a civilian with a Conceal Carry permit and a pistol.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from on this now.

Just heard on the news that some students told the instructor in one of Cho's classes. That they refused to attend class as long as Cho was in the class room. The instructor repeatedly requested that someone, including Law Enforcement check him out.

He was, reportedly a very weird and spooky individual who was avoided by many students. Some students upon hearing of the shootings, instantly knew it was Cho.

Being wierd and spooky is not a crime and does not meet an objective standard for a 4th amendment intrusion:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I could fill a ledger with the names of wierd and spooky people I would like to "check out"... however, their civil rights preclude such action. It is very likely that many members of this forum would be described as "wierd, spooky, armed, and dangerous" by certain family members or neighbors.

I am not criticizing any individual comments. The sole intent of this post is to highlight the relationship of the 1st, 2nd, and 4th ammendments.

When discussing this issue, it is best to keep a wide perspective. In VT case, a 4th ammendment intrusion by the government on Cho may have prevented his 4th ammendment intrusion on his victims.

It is a very slippery slope.

Jack

P.S. My opinion on the matter is that Americans across the board need to take their safety as an increasingly personal responsibility, as opposed to relying on the government for security.

I was just thinking that this sort of thing is what happens to a people who remove God from their lives, this lost demented soul probably would have thought more if he said the Lords Prayer before class. This countrys headed down a path of total moral and spirtual desintergration so lets take a look at ourselves. Remove God from schools, government, media, our daily lives and we end up with a country we deserve. Our leaders have outlawed God, are guns next? I think our leaders need to be outlawed. Im going to keep our God and my gun close no matter what the political correct thinking masses dictate. Thats my take on this tragedy.

Dante Di Pietro Jr.

Bless you! I whole heartedly agree with where you're coming from in principle. But I'm afraid I must disagree with you on some of the particulars you may be suggesting.

I want my Government to do all it can to insure that I and all my fellow citizens are safe and free to call upon God and pray, whenever we may want and wherever we may be. But I don't think it is right, proper or fitting for my Government to mandate, or even just suggest, by what name God should be called by, or what prayer or prayers should be used, or where and when it may happen.

(There's a lot of confusion that has been going 'round this country for some time now concerning Freedom of Religion. And I've my own well formed opinions 'bout it. But I got a nagging feeling like a hang fire in the back of my brain that tells me this forum is not the place for it.)

Good Instincts...
 

We went down that road a while ago... very interesting, very over:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...d&pagenumber=1

Jack

Herbz and Jack, My comments were about God not religon relating to my opinion on the killings. I really dont care if anyone disagrees or agrees with me.

:confused: :( :grr: ..I'm a mix of these.
So meaningless, so much pain for those who lost someone close. It can happen anywhere at any time, but I don't want to spend my life being afraid of it to happen, just prepared that it might.

Personally I think it's a bad idea to release the video he took, as it might encourage other mentally disturbed people to do the same. Publicity is not always a good thing when it comes to these things..

Perhaps we need to go back to the old time mental hospitals that had bars on the windows and to the time when people used to be sent to them and then had a difficult time in getting out.

May not totally solve the problem, but i would sure reduce it greatly.

Sure, we could try having mental asylums again, only not like we use to do it. We might be able to do a better job of it now, with better mental health methods of treatment, new drugs and other kinds of new therapies, and more humane surrounding so people would be more willing to sign their family members into them before a court order was necessary to do so.

Whose gonna pay for those metal hospitals?

What do we do, increase the taxes on something or start taxing something we don't already tax?

..or medicate them far into Sesame Street for those 'beond repair' cases (likely with Cho) and other various ways of threatment where it's still hope.

Patients probably react differently to different ways of threatment, making it a difficult (and dangerous) job. So all my respect to those who have mental health care as their line of work, who know how many lives they have saved..

Presently, you cannot force them to take medications. Secondly, the system here does not consider anyone beyond repair. Thirdly, they are living in the neighborhoods with everyone else, so there is no one to medicate them. Fourthly, people consider it to be a violation of their rights if info was to be given out concerning them or their condition (and there are laws that prohibit the release of that information).

lew, things are pretty much the same on this site of the pond, no one is 'beyond repair' by medical term.
Naturly the use force is strictly prohibited, can only be used in very special cases with the acceptance from trustee/guardian, or in severve dangerous situations. Same goes for medication.. Think that's a problem with cases like Cho, how to prevent these tragedies. For me that's more important than what to do when it happens.

morgan

As I mentioned there is an easy way to prevent or lessen.

But you cannot invade their privacy. So one person's right of privacy is more important than 32 lives.

But then if you have been classified as a sex offender (and I am using that term loosely) - even 30 years ago, then you have no right of privacy. Your name and address is posted on official web sites with a map of the area so people can locate the person.

Which is more important - the name and address of a 18 year old kid (senior in high school) who has sex with a 16 year old girl (sophomore in high school -- or -- someone who has the potential to be dangerous to the unsuspecting public ???

You can vote here:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/us/beseenb...pup?id=3046132

Interesting:

www.roanoke.com/editorail...ywb/80510

My son teaches 5th grade and is 6'4" and 230 lbs. There are a number of kids in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade who swear at the teachers, throw books, hit teachers etc. When sent to the time out room, the aid tells the kids that if the teacher would have handled things differently or said something nicer to them, they wouldn't act as they do. The parents also blame the teachers, in front of their kids. You couldn't pay me enough to teach school. Amen to letting GOD back into the school. The other teachers get my son to restrain kids because they cant control them. I pray for our teachers daily as well as for the children who try their best. I also pray for the killers parents. They must be going through hell. Doug

It won't matter if you can get God back into the classroom, if He's not already in a student's home. And you're just putting the responsibility for one more task on the already overburden classroom teacher that should have been done by the parents before they ever sent their kid to school. There may be a lot wrong with many of our public school systems (I'm not arguing that), but they're just another symptom, not the actual problem.

I was shocked one person could kill so many people. While I am not judging the victims of mass shootings, it reminded me of when the late Jeff Cooper said that during these kinds of shootings, the victims cowered while the goblin shot them. He said you should resist, with your bare hands if necessary.
If six of those students had stood up, grabbed their desks or chairs to use as shields, and charged the shooter, he would have been lucky to have dropped two of them before being tackled and disarmed.
I have no idea what I would do in that situation, but I hope, that like the people on Flight 93, I would have the courage to fight back.

Herb,

Well said...

Ron

Matt..Having been at war for two years in my youth I can tell you it is difficult to get even a trained Soldier to charge live fire. In the confines of a small classroom, once the shooter is in the door, all cooperation for a mass assault falls away in confusion as the shooter finds and shoots the first target. The confusion and noise plus the shock of the appearance of a killer in your face will cause all but the bravest to fall back.
There are only few opportunities during an assult..reloading and if he were to try and breech a doorway that is closed. If he were to stick a hand through a door his arm could be broken by a chair or other heavy object.
Remember these students are mere children. The mature adults on flight 93 had age and time. Once they discovered they had nothing to lose they parleyed and came up with a plan, then executed it.
These Virginia Tech students were overwhelmed with deadly force quickly. An ambush so to speak.The few who had some time did block doors or escaped thru windows.
In many instances of large groups guarded by a few with weapons it would seem reasonable to overpower their guards. Look at how many Jews were assembled and killed by just a few.
The Battan death March. Dozens more...Hard to say what any of us might do given these circumstances. Like you I pray for courage should I need it. Jerry Burney