Fake Navy Toggle
 

Here is a good example of a fake 1906 navy toggle currently on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/LUGER-ORIGINAL-1...QQcmdZViewItem

Those toggle knobs are almost straight out of pictures posted on this forum.
Big Norm

PS. Sorry guys I couldn't copy the address right, but the item number is 300100770571

Gee Norm, I don't know. It has been refinished/restored, but it looks kinda good to me. The sides of the toggle knobs are not nearly as flat or finely checkered as the repros. But I could be fooled.

I know the gentleman selling this item. A very honest and reputable fellow collector.

Navy rear sight sure looks to have the right profile.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...sight_ebay.jpg

I think it is legit.

Tom A.

BIG NORM, I'm the one selling it and I think you should make sure before you call something fake. I sent this assy. along with the bbl. assy to Hugh Clark to check the head space and if he sees this thread I would like his opinion. Also, I would be willing to send this to who ever is the most expert on this. If it is fake I'll pay shipping both ways and if it is real you repay me the shipping both ways. I have noticed on these boards that some are always quick to judge. Put your money where your mouth is. By the way, Thank you for those not so quick to judge. Doug

BIG NORM, Look on the "Luger Pistols Gunboard" under 1900-1918 P.04 Navy Lugers. Find my post dated 1/19/07 titled "NAVY SIGHT COMMENTS?" I wanted to make sure it was ok before selling it so posted pictures and asked for comments. A Mr. Val Berman (valbehaved) commented saying it was legit. No other comments. Doug

I keep a picture of Ron Woods description of repro navy rear toggles on my desk. A comparision of that picture to the picture supplied in a previous forum discussion(see below) makes the toggle KNOBS look repro to me .

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=16554

Perhaps someone more adept with computers then me could pull up the picture supplied in that thread of the repro and then pull up the picture supplied on Ebay and compare the KNOBS. They looked the same to me. The surface of the KNOBS look very flat and the edges look sharper than the edges of the knobs on the original navy rear toggle.

Going strictly on my memory, the serrations seemed to be longer on the Ebay pictures than on either of the pictures (original or repro) in the forums thread. But I am not able to pull up the Ebay auction, for some reason, so I am not able to double check myself. So I am basing my opinion on this thread only on the KNOBS.

I usually look at the KNOBS on the navy Lugers because, at a gun show, it is difficult to actually see the differences in the serrations and their heights along with the rounded contour. Sometimes a seller doesn't have another navy to compare with. But the flatness of the surface of the KNOBS seems to be an easy givaway.

vtwoodchuck,
I sent you an email via Ebay and you have not responded to it as of this date. But I guess that this discussion will do the job.
Big Norm

Pete et al, The milled repro Navy rear toggle links with 2 position rear sights that I get from Germany & sell for $400, don't have as many serrations forward of the push button as the one that you show. The Cast (Sarco type -- my price $200) one do. Lugerdoc

Pete et al, The milled repro Navy rear toggle links with 2 position rear sights that I get from Germany & sell for $400, don't have as many serrations forward of the push button as the one that you show. The Cast (Sarco type -- my price $200) one do. Lugerdoc

Lets see if I can do this.
0456_12JPG.jpg (from Ebay)
navy_sight_compare.jpg (from lugerforum)
Big Norm

Whoops, doesn't look like I can do that. :confused:

photo
 

Comparison posted by tracyp in referenced Norm post .



http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...opy1_copy2.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...opy3_copy1.jpg

eBay auction photo :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/0456_12.jpg

I see Norm's point. The toggle labeled original does not look like the toggle being sold. I checked my Navy and it has a toggle just like the one being sold. Are there differences in toggles for earlier and later Navies?
If not something wrong with comparison photo.
Tom

The little flat portion of the abutment behind the toggle knob is also something to look for in Navy toggles.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...opy1_copy1.jpg

The eBay offering looks like it has this "flat" as well...

Having said this...take a look at a 1917 Navy the Simpsons LTD folks are selling and call a "fake"...

You can zoom in on the Simpson site photos and see the toggle knob details and the rear sight details...

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=2855

Maybe some mechanics in the USA are making (from scratch...) a much better "repro" than is available from one source in Germany which the repro sample in the photo comparison, above, that Ron Wood did some time ago...

Maybe the USA makers have gotten the rear sight profile right but not the dicing and radius pattern on the knobs ???

BTW...here is the posting and discussion Doug mentioned over on Jan Still's Gun Boards :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10390

I have moved two of Doug's photos from the G-B's over here to the LF for a better look :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...723_nav1ac.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...858_nav10a.jpg

Hi Again, This pistol, all except the stripped frame came from Uruguay last winter. The grips, trigger, grip safety lever are numbered 26. The side plate, take down lever, and other small parts are not numbered. It is within the serial number range of the 50 Navy lugers sold to Uruguay in the 1930's. I think DWM put the Lugers together from parts available at the time. The frame is the long frame with the safety area marked in the lower position. As I said, I would be glad to send it to an expert this board recomends to have it checked out. I know it came from Uruguay as I am the one who received it from there. More pictures are available if you e-mail me at vtwoodchuck@hotmail.com including the picture of the pistol before it was stripped. Doug

Gentlemen,

This is an excellent discussion on the techical aspects of the Navy Luger... I would think that should be possible to be discussed without tempers or egos being a factor.

I spoke too soon. I took the 1906 Navy out of the safe and looked at it in good light; it has more of a chamfer than I originally thought. It looks more like the one labeled original.
Tom

Current RIA auction house Lot # 5196 is another "made-up" 1917 Navy...their words...

http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...=40&iid=196593

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload..._1917_navy.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...917_navy_2.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...917_navy_3.jpg

Compare to what might actually be a nice M1908 in another of the RIA offerings...

This one has the 'flats' on the back-side of the toggle knob abutments...just like the assembly Doug is selling on eBay...

http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...=40&iid=195978

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...980_navy_1.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...980_navy_2.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...980_navy_4.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...980_navy_3.jpg

On page 12 of the photo albums in the "Member Gallery" section, there is an assortment of Navy rear toggle links that John Sabato had compiled from various members' photos.

Halaloya!!!! I have been vindicated on the forum and I truely feel like i have created a very valuable lesson for my fellow Luger collectors in the lesson book which I shall call 'Luger University for Collectors and Keepers (LUCK).

In the old Lugerforum a long, long time ago, I was heavily chastised and received numerous emails regarding a VERY heated topic that I started regarding, the then recent, German imports of 1970's copies of Mauser commemorative navy Luger toggles. I created more than a few enemies and I had to walk around with my tail between my legs for a long time. Man, I really should take John Sabatos advice and keep this civil. But I was deeply hurt and that hurt has never gone away.

At that time, a well known restorer asked for the address of the German importers so that he could purchase some. I vehimately protested as loud as I could both on the old forum and in email. I felt that this restorer was in a position, as a reportibly excellent restorer, to CREATE many 'new' navy Lugers. This all was before Ron Woods posted his OUTSTANDING display of original vs repro navy toggles. To the best of my knowlege, this restorer has never created a 'new' navy Luger. Also, to the best of my knowlege, he is an excellent restorer. I have never tried him or seen any of his work.

But, sadly, it seems that my doomsday predictions of long ago have come true. Some sleaze bags out there have produced expensive 'new' navy Lugers and the practice has apparently become widespread. The only defense that I can see is this and Jan Stills extremely valuable websites. Read both sites, post book marks on your computer and read and then read some more. The seller of the toggle here may not have been trying to cheat anyone. He just may not have known about his toggle. He may have sought 'expert' advice from someone who gave him a 'quicky' reply based on the adjustible part of that sight. After all, the adjustible part of his sight does look original. Lets cut him some slack and give him the benefit of the doubt.

I sincerely hope that I have done some good here and saved my fellow Luger collectors a lot of money.
Big Norm

How discouraging this has all become! I am so thankful that I bought my one-and-only authentic Navy long ago from a reputable dealer. I will never buy another.

Even though some of the more recent fake Navy Lugers still have small discrepancies that allow detection, the crooks are getting better and better. I wonder if this practice will eventually devalue even authentic guns, because no one will be able to tell the difference.

Luke

Luke,
don't get discouraged. This is all part of obtaining knowlege. Stay here and keep posting. I have enjoyed your many posts. Better men than you and me have been taken in all sorts of collecting. You and others on this and Jan Stills web sites are better men now.
Big Norm

Hi Again, A fellow collector drove over this afternoon to look at the toggle. He noticed something that I hadn't. On the under inside flat of the toggle is the #3. My 1916 does not have a number there HOWERVER my 1906 1st issue altered has a #4 in the same location. I cannot seem to figure how to put more than 1 photo on. Could I e-mail them to someone to load them for me. I am still NOT convinced it is a fake. Am I kicking a dead horse? Doug

This is the underside of my 1906 Navy 1st issue altered.

Confused
 

Well I looked at page 12 in the gallery photos, as Pete suggested, and that sure didn't firm up in my mind what a Navy toggle looks like. To my eye there appears to be differences in the Bevel/chamfer on the advertised genuine Navy toggles; they don't all look alike. I'm wondering if the color of the metal and lighting influence the perception. Based on the samples shown in the gallery, and Doug's photos I would not be able to call Doug's a fake. I'd have to hold it in my paw and eyeball it to say it's not real.
Tom

Doug, what is an important issue on your toggle is it reportedly comes from the Uraguayan cantract of post WWI Navies. I am not sure that anyone has a definitive statement on what a Weimar era production Navy sight should look like. There may have been slight variations including maching the toggle knobs as a standard P08. Or there may be a Waffenampt Uruguay competing with the US. Or the whole Uruguay thing cold be a scam far earlier than your involvement.

This toggle came to you in your Uruguay purchase and that is I believe how you represented it. It does not appear to be identical to an Imperial Navy toggle, but to the person purchasing it to restore a Navy with a missing toggle that may not be important. To the gray world of the boosters, who knows. You have been honest and open about it and the market will set the price.

Heinz,
I second your emotion. Bravo. While I appreciate Petes input, which demonstrates how widespread this problem is, I thought, when I started this topic, that this would be a terrific learning experience for the people on this website. I think that I am accomplishing that goal. Maybe some people here who have commercial marked, 1920's, model 1914, navy Lugers can chime in here? It seems that someone here once mentioned that he had one. I'll have to go thru my navies to see if I have something along that order.

I have received an email from Doug and I have looked at his altered Ebay sale. I believe that his passion shows that he is trying to do the right thing. Whatever he thinks that is. That is why I earlier requested that Lugerforum people cut him some slack. Lets keep this a learning experience. Thats what this forum is all about.

As I wrote to Doug in reply to his email, I believe that this toggle is a hybrid. Why anyone would put an authentic adjustible sight part on a repro toggle is beyond me. If your going to change the rear sight from authentic to repro and then sell the authentic one separately, then why mix up the pieces? But this is a side issue and distracts from the point of this thread.
Big Norm

Hello Big Norm

I am the one that drove to Dougs house to examine the part and it looks legit to me and not some sort of a hybrid that you allege .

Mike

Before I called something a fake, I would make sure I knew what I was talking about. As far as this Norm being vindicated, not in my view. The last word should have been when Tom A. said 'I think it is Legit".

Hi, Thank you all for your comments pro and con. Someone has bid on it and I will refund all moneys paid including shipping both ways if they are not satisified it is original. I still would like to know from those of you who own a 1906 Navy if yours has a number under the knobs as I have shown above AND from LugerDoc, if the repros, cast or milled have a number there? It would seem to me that a faker would not bother to put a number there as a majority of the Navy lugers like my 1916 DO NOT have a number there but have a small mark futher back. You are a great bunch of guys and I am learning a lot about Lugers. Norm, I did not receive your reply e-mail. For some reason I have been missing some lately. I really do want to know about the '06 toggles and the number underneath it. Thanks. Doug

I have a 1906 commercial navy with a three stamped on the underside, but in a different location. It is between the knobs and the link on the flat part, on your right if you are behind the gun.

My 1906 Navy has an 8 stamped in around same location as Chuckc described.
Tom

1906 Navy First Issue Altered, #513a. Pictures can be deceiving. This is the same toggle shot under different lighting conditions and slight change in angle:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/two_shots.jpg

Here is the bottom of the toggle:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bottom.jpg

Hi Ron, Nice photos. The slight angle change sure makes them look like different toggles. (I think the second one down is a fake). Just kidding. Doug:)

vtwoodchuck. I believe you are being very fair and showing that you are a man with honor with your offer to refund the bid if the person isn't completely sure that the item is original. I for one would buy from you with confidence.

I have known Doug for 40 years . He is as honest as the day is long . Had Big Norm known him that long I am sure he would have come to that conclusion 39 years 364 days ago.

Mike

To all,
When I saw Dougs photos of his sale of a navy toggle, I felt something was wrong. I looked at Ron Woods display of a repro versus an original navy toggle and I was absolutely convinced that Dougs toggle was a fake. I encountered so much opposition here that I decided to copy both the Ebay picture and Rons display. For clarity, I copied them onto photo paper because that would give me a sharper picture. I also copied to 8.5 X 11 inch paper so that people could get a better view of what I was talking about. While holding these pictures side by side, five other Luger people agreed with me that Dougs toggle was a repro. I then planned to take those photos to a local gun show where I knew more luger collectors congregate.

But never did I call Doug a cheat or a dishonest man. On two separate occasions I clearly stated that we should give this man some slack and that this discussion was for learning purposes only. I feel sorta insulted that people have put words in my mouth that I never said. Yah, like someone that you have known for anywhere up to 40 years would cheat someone. Boy, have I got some news for that person.

Until I saw Ron Woods last picture, I would have gone to the wall believing that Dougs toggle was a repro. But then I got to thinking about Rons pictures which I didn't think differed that much from the pictures that I have. So I decided to think 'outside the box'. There was just too much disagreement here on the forum. Did Ron also have a repro toggle? No way! Did Ron monkey with the pictures? Again, no way! Where Rons pictures of an original versus a repro really tell the real story? O-O-O! Possible. And finally, did DWM change the checkering on the toggle knob and they changed production from one model to another? After all, they did go from long frame to short frame during that process as well as from grip safety to no grip safety. O-O-O! Another possibility.

So I went to my treasure chest of navy Lugers. Fortuately, I have a large collection of the different navy models. To my distress I did find that one of my navies had a repro toggle. Good for this discussion, bad for me. This error occured during my transformation from artilleries to navies several plus years ago. But the rest of the Lugers are good, including one 1920's model 1914 navy.

What I found was that Rons picture of a repro is not that good. The surface of the repro is much flatter then one would suspect from the picture. The bevel edge is also much sharper then in Rons picture. On the original, the checkering is not as large as it is shown in Rons original vs repro picture. The flat surface in Rons picture almost looks slightly round and smaller when also considering the apparent over sizing of the beveled edges. Actually, Petes picture of a navy in an auction is a good picture of a real toggle. And that toggle corresponds to the toggles on my navies (except for one).

So, in conclusion, I have to say that Dougs toggle is legit. Where is that crow, I'm hungry. I hate passing the buck onto Rons back. When he speaks I generally listen up. This is a lesson that I should phyically look at something and not at pictures. Ron actually made me physically take a look at my guns and that resulted in truth. Rons pictures of original vs repro are really quite valuable.
Big Norm