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Testing various types of gun oil
Ok guys, this can be just one of those rather silly ideas I get from time to time.. But this is what I'm thinking. I have heard that there is quite a difference between gun care products when it comes to the issue of rust. I'm one of those guys who never cared much about the oil. Gear oil, engine oil with fuel, soya oil.. you name it, I have tried all sort of silly things. And they have all worked fine for me.. but after a rainy day, they all come home with traces of rust. My idea was that we could make our own little test, for the benefit of us all. I'm thinking of making a test with 20+ of commercial gun care products and various oils with the right thickness.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload..._28small29.jpg The test will consist of these phases; -All blades will be cleaned with what we call 'red spirits' here in norway, it is common to use on metal paint jobs etc.. Leaves very little residue and removes stains. -Then, two and two blades are oiled in with the various oils and put in a plastic cups filled with salt water. I'm thinking about one tee-spoon for each cup, but mixed as one divided into the cups. I'm willing to do this test, but for that I would need help. I have some types of oil, including ww2 US army oil and standard norwegian army oil. But naturally I can't purchase one of each out there on the marked. What I'm asking, is one cleaning patch soaked with oil of each type, in a plastic sealed bag sent to my address. We could make a list over the various kinds of oil to be covered in the test. If there is any interest, let me know.. but I will not bother to do the test for one of the following reasons; -low interest, few products -similar neutral test available on the net. ..btw, any input on how to do it, would be greatly appreciated:) _________________ Edit: I got another idea as well.. Testing the oils in normal winter conditions. How 'thick' they get in say.. -10`C / 14F. (It's not very important.. since they probably can be thinned out with fuel) Any suggestions would be appreciated. Ops.. time flies! I realy need to get back to work now;) |
Good idea....well worth a try...
In cold, damp England I've developed a "concoction"/mixture of my own similar to Fred/Eds(?) "Red" Bore Cleaner http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?p=68615 but includes a MIL spec gas turbine inhibiting oil/fuel (I used to be in the aviation business and acquired "a quantity" surplus to requirements). Seems to work OK on my Luger and Lahti etc and they live in the NRA Armoury at Bisley and only get visited once a month. So far, so good - no signs of corrosion and after a quick "rod thru the bore" are ready to shoot. There are some other Heritage Pistol holders at Bisley who use US made special blue plastic bags for long term storage - but it would be very disappointing to get your P '08 out of it's blue bag and find it rusty. BTW - what's the minimum temperature you shoot at in Norway? or do you always shoot on indoor ranges? I was shooting at -2 deg C last Sunday Feb 4th and both the Luger and the Lahti worked well on factory ammo but the Lahti would cycle on a softer home load than the Luger. BR DCCUK |
I have over a gallon of US military CLP from a marine friend that I would be happy to share/use for this experiment. I also have a somewhat large bottle of Militech1 which is supposed to be excellent. Let me know how I can help.
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Great:) it's a step on they way.
So far: -ww2 US oil (yours truly) -norwegian military oil (yours truly) -Hoppe's (yours truly) -Various non gun oils (yours truly) -(DCCUK's mixture?) ;) -US CLP (Crotalus) -Militech1 (Crotalus) ..again.. I don't need a full bottle for this simple experiment, just one soaked patch. DCCUK, usually I shoot outdoor, but rarely under -10`C (since I now live in Oslo). I have fired 7.62 H&K G3 without problems in -40`C (without oil, just some lead added on moveable parts), same rifle will start jamming in -10`C with regular gun oil and function quite well down to about -30`C with oil/fuel mixture. (I haven't tried any other auto rifle that goes that low) I have found 9mm in MP5 and Glock pretty much useless in temperatures below -20`C, even without oil. One short time solution would be to pee on it if needed very badly, I know that works;) |
I just need an address to send it to, if you can PM me that would be great. I wonder how WD-40 would hold up.
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We can wait and see if more people joins in first.. I was hoping for 20+ types, not sure if its realistic or not yet.
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Steinar,
I have Hoppies gun oil, Break free LP, Rem oil, Rig +p grease, militec 1, and Brownells stainless slick. If you want any smaples PM me your address. I usally stick to Hoppies or break free CLP to clean, I have other cleaners but they dry out my skin and I am afraid to get them on the Wood and plastic parts. Could a trigger scale be used for the friction test? Chris |
:) I think a trigger scale would be great. Would have to find a scale sensitive enough..
If it can make readings when pulling along a horizontal metal surface, I think that would be best. Anyway.. the rust protection is the 'main' test, it's simple and I think it will turn out with a relegable result. List is now -ww2 US oil (yours truly) -norwegian military oil (yours truly) -Hoppe's (yours truly) -Various non gun oils (yours truly) -(DCCUK's mixture?) -US CLP (Crotalus) -Militech1 (Crotalus) -Hoppies gun oil (chris) -Break free LP (chris) -Rem oil (chris) -Rig +p grease (chris) -Brownells stainless slick (chris) I'm still hoping for a couple of more brands;) ..will make contact on PM later on. |
Steinar,
I have some oldstyle Dutch military grade gun oil. It's no longer in use by the army because it's not really healthy to use it on a regular basis. I'd be happy to send you a sample for the test, as I have been using this stuff for years (just not in dangerous quantities :) ). Made in 'Zwijndrecht'. I can also get you a dab of Swiss gun grease, as found in the Swiss gun cleaning kits. |
Great:)
This will be interesting.. I just picked up Eezox as well. List is now -Eezox (yours truly) -ww2 US oil (yours truly) -norwegian military oil (yours truly) -Hoppe's (yours truly) -Various non gun oils (yours truly) -(DCCUK's mixture?) -US CLP (Crotalus) -Militech1 (Crotalus) -Hoppies gun oil (chris) -Break free LP (chris) -Rem oil (chris) -Rig +p grease (chris) -Brownells stainless slick (chris) -old style Dutch military oil (G. van Vlimmeren) -dab of Swiss gun grease (G. van Vlimmeren) Will be an interesting little test I think. Will send out my address to those above. One regular soaked patch is all that is needed of each type, be sure to place it in a sealed plastic bag. If anyone else want to have their oil tested, it's not to late. :) |
Hi Steinar, this sounds like a neat test.
Have you reviewed this process & testing results on nails and salt spray? http://www.thegunzone.com/rust.html You may get some ideas about process from that information. I don't know if the results were debated or challenged in his testing. I purchased some eezox, and primarily use CLP after reading that a few years back. I also contacted mtuite@corrosionx.com a while back, he sent a small free tube of corrosionX - don't know if he would ship to Norway or not. It might be worth an email to see. Regards, Fritz. |
Hi Steinar.
Great idea to compare these products. :) I'm a big fan of Firepower FP-10 (from MPC) and plain ATF-fluid (automatic transmission fluid) which I also use in my Corvette. If you like I will send you some patches with each of these oils. Peet. |
Fritzer, thanks for the link! I knew there bad to be a simular test out there somewhere.. still, the ball is rolling. Think I will be using less salt, and stretch the time period out more than in that test. Also check how durable they are against wear..
Will be far from a profesional test, but will do my best to make it worth the effort. Fritzer, I will send a mail, just in case:) 76 VETTE, thanks for contributing. ..Corvette derservs the best! List is now -Eezox (yours truly) -ww2 US oil (yours truly) -norwegian military oil (yours truly) -Hoppe's (yours truly) -Various non gun oils (yours truly) -(DCCUK's mixture?) -US CLP (Crotalus) -Militech1 (Crotalus) -Hoppies gun oil (chris) -Break free LP (chris) -Rem oil (chris) -Rig +p grease (chris) -Brownells stainless slick (chris) -old style Dutch military oil (G. van Vlimmeren) -dab of Swiss gun grease (G. van Vlimmeren) -Firepower FP-10 (76 Vette) -ATF-fluid (76 Vette) |
I use ATF too and a lot of folks swear by Mobil 1 motor oil also.
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I will add Mobil 1 to my list. I also have some Aeroshell 2F engine preserving oil that i will add.
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:)
List is now -Eezox (yours truly) -ww2 US oil (yours truly) -norwegian military oil (yours truly) -Hoppe's (yours truly) -Various non gun oils (yours truly) -(DCCUK's mixture?) -US CLP (Crotalus) -Militech1 (Crotalus) -Hoppies gun oil (chris) -Break free LP (chris) -Rem oil (chris) -Rig +p grease (chris) -Brownells stainless slick (chris) Mobil 1 (chris) Aeroshell 2F (chris) -old style Dutch military oil (G. van Vlimmeren) -dab of Swiss gun grease (G. van Vlimmeren) -Firepower FP-10 (76 Vette) -ATF-fluid (76 Vette) I think this will do for this test. :) I'm still open for other types, but basicaly I think we're there now. It will be interesting to se how it turnes out. |
Thanks for the good info on shooting in a cold climate....
The UK doesn't get really cold but down here in Somerset up on the Mendip Hills, only 1000ft altitude, makes it a couple of degrees colder and can be quite critical on the choice of oil for firearms when it's driving snow/sleet/hail/rain - which is typical Mendip weather....and throw in fog too for added dampness... but then we can't shoot because you can't see into the safety area.......... Re: My Heritage Pistol Collection - it is very import that not only do they not corrode while in they do not corrode while in storage in the NRA Armoury but that they will functiion without completely stripping and cleaning - don't want to waste valuable range/shooting time..... I dug out some info on some of the Inhibiting Fluids/oils I have: D Eng RD 2490. NATO code 0-135 Joint Services Desig. OM-11. Mineral aviation turbine oil â?? 3 centistokes â?? AeroShell Turbine Oil 3. DEF 2001/A this is now obsolete, superseded by DEF STAN 91 â?? 44. NATO code 0-134. Joint Services Desig.OM 13, General purpose lube oil â?? AeroShell Fluid 1 US Fed spec VV-L-800A. NATO code 0-190. General purpose oil and preservative (water displacing low temperature). Alt Brit spec CS3118 â?? Aeroshell Fluid 18 BR DCCUK |
Great DCCUK:)
..I got a reply from something called Pro-Long today. They where are happy to send me a couple of samples. In their web page, they refers to a serious research institute/university in my home city Trondheim, Sintef. With good results on a test they made (probably on their engine oil, not gun oil serie). ..but if it works against rust in my little test.. time will tell:) They claim that it is positive charged, and therefore is binding to metal, with is negative. That is suppose to make it more durable.. 'Consists of no particles like teflon, graffit, molybdeum, sink or plasticmolekyles (?). Does not liberate salt acid (HCL) over time and binds to other oils.' ...what all this means, I don't know.. the story goes on.. It's rather expensive stuff, and it will be interesting to see if it works against rust. Will also add vaseline, the type without water. :bigbye: |
This sounds like it is shaping up to quite a test.
I have not used Ballistol myself, but have heard of it as a rust preventative - and I belive it may have originated in Europe? It might be worth consideration? Regards, Fritz. |
I just put a bunch of samples together for shipment. I was not sure how the patch would work so I wound up putting the fluids and grease is small 15ml sample bottles that I had laying around. I numbered the bottles and am making this table to help you identify the fluid in each bottle. The padded sample bottle holder that I plan to ship holds 12 bottles so I decided to try to fill them all with whatever I had laying around. So far I have 10. If you can think of anything for the other two let me know.
Chris Bottle 1. Aeroshell 2F Bottle 2. WD-40 Bottle 3. Mobil 1 Bottle 4 Aluma Guard Bottle 5 Rem oil Bottle 6 hoppies oil Bottle 7 militec 1 Bottle 8 break free LP Bottle 9 Brownells stainless slick Bottle 10 RIG +P Stainless steel |
Great contribution to the test Chris! :)
..I was thinking.. if some oils turn out with the same 'perfect' condition after two weeks, we could extend the test period to separate 'winners'. I will try to update regularly with pictures, so we could then decide to extend test period or not. |
Oils
Hi:
A year or so ago, there was an extensive article, in on of the gun rags regarding oils. They tried everything! The conclusion was that CLP was the best, readily available, oil, preservative. The stuff might be good, but I can't stand the smell of it. To me it is sickening sweet Sieger |
Bottle #11 lithium grease
Bottle # 12 Black Bear PAR-AL-Ketone Click here for info on the black bear I hope to ship it today or tomorrow. Thanks, Chris |
I think doing an independent test on typical preservatives is a great idea, what you find may be very different than what is advertised by the makers.
I have a great deal of lab technician experience in analyzing lubricants for the various nuclear industries. We built a multi million dollar independent testing lab because some of the technical information being supplied was bogus. One of the main reasons that preservatives and lubricating oils fail to preserve is that they are hygroscopic (they attract water). Overtime the water reacts with the various chemicals and impurities and forms acids which attack the metals forming rust and at times pitting. This reaction may take quite some time to setup and is dependent on temperature, humidity and the surface composition youâ??re using it on. For example many collectible guns have a light rust coating almost a browning, some are salt bath blued and of course some are rust blued; each of these surfaces has a different chemical composition or way of bonding and will form rust and pitting differently. With that said, synthetic oils are rarely good long term preservatives (notice I said long term). The reason is that they absorb water at an alarming rate, most fail water absorption testing if left out in the open air for more than a few hours. Many of your more common over the counter synthetic oils fail in 30 minutes or less! Now imagine coating your gun in synthetic oil and placing it in storage! Everyone has an opinion on what is best; after 3 years of controlled lab testing, I clean the guns I regularly touch, frequently and use good quality old fashion gun oil and feel pretty confident. I hope this information will be useful to some of you I talk too much and will close now Vern |
Steinar,
Did you get any of the samples yet? Mine should be there any day. I put a suprise in the package. I hope you like it. Let me know when you get it. Chris |
Chris, as per today, I have received the samples from G. van Vlimmeren and 76Vette. Yours will probably arrive shortly.. A surprise? I hope it arrives today then:D
Last weekend I was 'home' in Leksvik, and took the plane down again to Oslo the following Monday. Without thinking.. Being used to the good old days.. I had 5 boxes of oil in my luggage. :rolleyes: Naturally they where found during the safety inspection, a polite inspectors informed me that they where illegal on planes :( ..I'm the idiot in this little story.. The boxes found their way into the garbage can. But I'm hoping, that in the end of the day, one of safety inspectors picked them up, because their doing a great job! Sad that such jobs are needed today.. Anyway, I will still be able to add about 4 different oils. Will come with an update when things are ready:) btw. I appreciate your informative input LugerVern:) ..talk to much uh? Don't think the forum would be much fun if all sat quiet;) |
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Tsk, tsk... everybody knows you're not supposed to fly when you're oiled! <grin> |
Here is the day 1 picture, taken yesterday.
Was a little to ambitious about the friction test :rolleyes: , so will drop that idea for now.. However, I have saved the cleaning patches for a second test later, to see if the results are consistent. Perhaps a metal bar placed outdoors, with the areas separated with tape ..or something like that:) Btw. Kroil and some other oils (the types that where taken at the airport) will join the test later on, I have saved some of the salt water solution for that. They will be 1, 2 or 3 weeks delayed but hopefully under similar conditions. http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_5304.jpg 1. Aeroshell 2F 2. WD-40 3. Mobil 1 4. Aluma Guard 5. Rem oil 6. Hoppies oil 7. Militec 1 8. Break Free LP 9. Brownells Steinless Slick 10. RIG +P Steinless stell 11. Lihium grease 12. Black Bear PAR-AL-Ketone (thanks Chris!) 13. Dutch oil 14. Swiss grease (thanks G. van. Vlimmeren!) 15. ATF Fluid 16. FP10 (thanks 76Vette!) 17. Eezok 18. Glen Boore 19. ---no oil--- |
Hoppe's looks particularly surprising and disappointing.
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Almost seem as if some of the oils solves out in water and therefore have no/little effect..? :confused: I'm thinking metal pipe on the second try, placed outdoors in snow/rain instead.
..also find it strange that the one without oil is 50% free of rust (no idea why.. it was well cleaned all over) |
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Not to bore you with the details; metals and salts of metals begin reactions at focal points, usually points of microscopic defect. As reactions occur in other places, electrons tend to get "handed off" from new areas of reaction to areas where reactions are already occuring. This feeds the old areas of reaction from potential new areas and therefore new areas are created more slowly than they might be otherwise. Think of it as having to break a threshold and once that threshold is broken, reaction is going to speed there and slow elsewhere. You may find that the depth of rust is a bit greater on the metal without oil than on samples with oil and the same apparent amount of surface rust. |
Is the brown on #12 rust or the "Bear fat" smeared on. I notice it still has the brownish color as the initial photo.
Have you tried the tool yet? |
Yes, with the oil I used a patch, but with the grease I used my finger tips to smear it out, to have it as equal over the piece as possible.. (used paintwork solvent to clean finger tips between each sample). On a larger surface such as on a pipe, I think a patch will be best. As to the #12, I think the colour is NOT rust, but traces of the grease itself.. I'm at work now, have a more detailed startup picture at home. So I will check it out:)
No need for the tool yet, but I'm sure I will need it very soon. Truly great :) those mainsprings have been flying around and causing all sorts of trouble, thanks again :cheers: |
Nice test. The old Swiss grease seems to work better than I expected. Dutch oil looks not too good :)
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Nice test. The old Swiss grease seems to work better than I expected. Dutch oil looks not too good :)
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Chris; yes, it's the grease, not rust:)
This is the results after day two; http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_5429.jpg 1. Aeroshell 2F http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1_2.jpg 2. WD-40 http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/2_2.jpg 3. Mobil 1 http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/3_2.jpg 4. Aluma Guard http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/4_2.jpg 5. Rem oil http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/5_2.jpg 6. Hoppies oil http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/6_2.jpg 7. Militec 1 http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/7_2.jpg 8. Break Free LP http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/8_2.jpg 9. Brownells Stainless Slick http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/9_2.jpg 10. RIG +P Steinless stell http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/10_2.jpg 11. Lihium grease http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/11_2.jpg 12. Black Bear PAR-AL-Ketone http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/12_2.jpg 13. Dutch oil http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/13_2.jpg 14. Swiss grease http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/14_2.jpg 15. ATF Fluid http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/15_2.jpg 16. FP10 http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/16_2.jpg 17. Eezok http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/17_2.jpg 18. Glen Boore http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/18_2.jpg 19. ---no oil--- http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/19_2.jpg |
Off to an interesting start I see!
David is correct about the micro fractures; when you broke the blade or when it was serrated tiny cracks formed; this sets up galvanic corrosion especially in an electrolyte like salt water. I am always so disappointed in Rem Oil and Hoppeâ??s in adverse environmentsâ??sad We know Break Free should do well, I am very interested in Mobil 1 and the ATF so far they look pretty good, it may take along time before you see something happen to some of your samples. WD40 was designed to displace water but because of its solvent abilities is usually not recommend for old guns especially those that have brown rust finish, it will not harm guns in good condition, I have not tested ATF in rust removal but Mobil 1 is just as aggressive at dissolving rust as WD40 maybe more, it is detergent oil after all. After you settle on your best preservatives, as a finial reality check, I would like to suggest getting the MSDS (material safety data sheet) on each and doing a comparison. It is next to impossible to handle your guns, let alone shoot them with out getting some of that preservative on your hands. In other words, what good is that rust free gun if youâ??re dead or canâ??t remember where you put it? My brother-in-law currently suffers from loss of short term memory, like in the movie (50 First Dates), funny movie but not funny in real life. His sickness is a result of small amounts of chemical exposure over a long period of years, he may never recover. Just a Suggestion. Vern |
Thanks for the informative information David and Vern. I support the tiny fracture theory created by cracking the blades. Perhaps also the tiny 'impact' of hitting the bottom of the cup can be enough to 'whip' off the oil in that area (like the #17)?
jupp.. here is todays picture; http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_5598.jpg |
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