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-   -   Erfurt Side Plate (https://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=1587)

Bob Kovacs 08-24-2001 04:18 AM

Erfurt Side Plate
 
Hello Guys...

First let me say how much i love this Luger Forum. You guys are the best. Now for my question...I want to replace the side plate on my 1916 Erfurt Luger. Its the only part except for the magazine that is a different serial number. Its made by Erfurt, but is a little pitted and i would like to replace it. Can i use a plate from DWM or Mauser or does it have to be from Erfurt? Thanks..Bob






tom h 08-24-2001 09:14 AM

Re: Erfurt Side Plate
 
Bob, From a collector's point of view, the only correct side plate for this pistol is one with the same 2 digits as the rest of the numbered parts and a crown over a letter Imperial inspection mark. As far as function is concerned, any replacement side plate, even another original Erfurt, may require some fitting to have it lay flat, and the trigger lever inside may have to be change for proper sear release. Tom




Kyrie 08-24-2001 06:57 PM

Re: Erfurt Side Plate
 
Hi Folks,


Tomâ??s comments regarding function are right on target. Lugers predate fully interchangeable parts, and replacing a part may require some fitting in order for the pistol to be safe - or even functional.


OTOH, Iâ??m not quite sure of Tomâ??s meaning when he writes of the â??correct side plateâ?. The only side plate that would make your Luger all original (â??matchingâ? in collector language) is the original side plate. That side plate is long gone :-(


Replacing the current non-original current side plate with another non-original side plate that happens to have the same last two digits as the Lugerâ??s frame would only make the pistol appear to match. In short, it would be a fake.


Hope this helps!


Best regards,


Kyrie






tom h 08-24-2001 11:55 PM

Re: Matching parts
 
Kyrie and I disagree on what is a matching pistol. If one can find a matching numbered part from the same manufacturer, with any proofs that are proper and with the correct original finish, I consider the pistol to be matching and so do most collector. I see no difference from the car collector who replaces his dented model A Ford fender with a different original A fender. The car and the pistol are definately not factory original, but they are matching original parts. Not some renumbered phoney fake, that many dealer and refinisher are trying to pass off as original. Restored at best.




Kyrie 08-25-2001 03:22 PM

Re: Matching parts
 
Hi Tom,


We do indeed differ on just what the term â??matchingâ? means :-(


Moreover I cordially, and quite strongly, disagree with your comment that â??most collectorsâ? agree with your position. Most collectors, at least in my experience, would respond very negatively (and very strongly) if offered an altered pistol as â??matching.â?


Best regards,


Kyrie






bill m 08-25-2001 03:51 PM

Re: Matching parts
 
Hi Kyrie,

If told that it was "altered", I'm sure most collectors would agree with you, but this information isn't told, so no one knows it was altered, except the man who changed the part. There is NO WAY for you to know that pin or trigger or sideplate, was changed, and thus, you would accept the gun as being original and matching. We have been thru this before and I admire your point of view, but the other side of this discussion is that you can restore a piece back to how it is suppose to be. I'll bet you that I can change the connecting pin in 5 guns and you can not get all 5 correct as to which has been messed with and which hasn't? -- and for that matter -- how do I know which guns are correct to start with, as I wasn't there at the factory to pick them up?? Sometimes I think we all go to extremes as what we call an all original and matching gun, we have no idea if it is actually as issued from the factory. When a Luger is from 50 to 90 years old and has been thru a number of different owners and handlers, the only thing we can go on is if the blue is the original color, and the numbers and proofs all correspond to that particular model -- thus matching. I personally do not think you can tell the difference of a changed sideplate if it is done correctly and with the proper replacement -- same style, numbers, and model.




Jesse 08-25-2001 05:21 PM

Re: Matching parts
 
I have to get in on this one. For a Luger to be to all original and/or a collector (NOTE, with some exception) IT has to have all the original parts, proofs , finish ,etc it came with from the factory. The term "Matching" is just that, it has all the original parts with the original "matching" numbers. The term "Matched" means that somewhere along the line one or more parts have got lost, broken, etc. and were replaced with a new or surplus part the has the same numbers. Thus the Luger is not original and in most cases will lose much of its collector value.


...............Jesse




Bill S. 08-25-2001 05:41 PM

Re: Matching parts
 
In Tom's example, how does one know if the 'matching found' sideplate is not the original sideplate which started life on that particular gun? It could have been and some how gotten separated along the way.


In the early sixties at a gun show in Norristown Pa. I purchased a lovely 98% Borchardt, serial number 305. Four years later at a gun show in Columbus, Ohio I found a Borchardt stock and cheekpiece numbered 305. Of course I purchased this find and considered I had a matching set. Somewhere, some how these pieces had been separated, but according to Kyrie this would not be considered a matching set. I feel if the number is correct along with color and every other criterion, then it is matching. Who can say different?


Bill S.




Kyrie 08-25-2001 07:29 PM

Re: Matching parts
 
Hi Bill,


Iâ??m afraid the comparison between the Borchardt and the Luger is invalid :-(


There were relatively very few Borchardt pistols made and their serial numbers did not repeat. There was one and only one Borchardt pistol serial number 305 - congratulations on your find. OTOH, there was something like 10,000 Lugers with a serial number ending on â??05â??. If you had a Luger serial number xx05 with a mismatched side plate and found a side plate numbered â??05â??, it would hardly be reasonable to assume the side plate you found was that 1 in 10,000 you needed.


The answer to your question, â??Who can say different?â?? is â??Any knowledgeable collectorâ?? :-(


Best regards,

Kyrie






Kyrie 08-25-2001 07:34 PM

Re: Matching parts
 
Hi Bill,


Respectfully and cordially, there are several ways to tell if a side plate has been switched. A fellow who switches side plates to create a fake isnâ??t likely to fool an experienced collector. Itâ??s the newbies who go to the cleaners due to this practice :-(


Best regards,


Kyrie






Craig 08-25-2001 08:28 PM

Re: Matching parts
 
Thanks to Kyrie I've got a better understanding of the purpose of _matching numbers_. Matching no.s indicate originality. If they aren't the original matching no.s then the pistol isn't originally matching either.


Mechanically speaking, matching numbers indicate those specific parts were fitted to and made to function with each other by the manufacturer.


If the demonstration of originality isn't the reason for matching numbers then what is? Why do collectors want them?


Now I'm hoping my post _matches_ the thread and is coherent:-)




Uncle Mike 08-25-2001 08:38 PM

Re: Matching parts;I agree Kyrie
 
Hi,Personally I feel Kyrie is 100% right.I see nothing wrong with finding a matching part as long as it is revealed.The problem comes about when that firearm is sold and it's not revealed.If someone wishes to restore a pistol thats his perogative but it's not ORIGINAL.It may be beautiful and I might buy it but that's not the point.




Bill S. 08-25-2001 10:11 PM

Re: Matching parts
 
Kyrie,


I have been collecting Lugers for over 40 years and I think I have developed some expertise on the subject though there is always room to learn. Yes, there were many more '05' sideplates then there were '305' Borchardt stocks, but that just makes the '05' sideplate eaiser to find. I defy any Luger collector to distinguish between 2 or more like kind same number sideplates in equal condition made by the same manufacturer within a short time period say 5 years. The color, number stamps, machine marks, will all be the same within normal tolerances. Only the trigger pull may have to be adjusted to make a perfect match. The gun will not be devalued but will increase in value because of the matching sideplate.


If I am wrong, please educate me on how one tells in what year or in what batch a certain '05' number sideplate was maunfactured so that I know it DEFINITELY did not come from any same manufacturer, particular Luger!


Does your concept of originality also extend to screws? If a 98% Luger has a butchered grip screw, is it acceptable to upgrade the screw from another gun or will that also devalue the piece? I think you may be spliting the proverbial hair.


Ciao,


Bill S.




Johnny Peppers 08-25-2001 10:12 PM

Re: Matching parts
 
Just my opinion, but I think where the rub comes in is calling the pistol with a replaced part a fake. A fake implies the intent to defraud someone. I don't believe that Bob had any intention of trying to defraud anyone, just that he wanted his pistol to again match, or be restored to it's original state. If Bob had changed his Erfurt to a 1915 date he would have indeed created a fake. If Bob finds a correctly numbered an proofed Erfurt sideplate, his pistol will be restored with original parts. It is no longer factory original, but is still an original Erfurt as only an Erfurt sideplate will be correct and original. Remember that a part can be original without being THE original part. In short, the problem is never with the pistol, but always with the representation (or misrepresntation) of it.




bill m 08-25-2001 10:13 PM

Re: Matching parts
 
Hi Kyrie,

You've mentioned twice now that "any knowledgeable collector" can tell if the sideplate has been replaced. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable and I have to say that I can not tell if a part has been changed if it is the same manufacture, style of numbers, and if proofed has the correct proofs. Not to be a smart-ass, but perhaps you can share with all of us how in the world you can tell if the trigger is original to a gun or not - as long as it is matched? How about the other parts -- pins, holdopens, firing pins and ect. I understand what your point is, but I can't seem to agree that you or anyone else can tell the difference if done properly. Every gun you come across from a dealer has to be subject in your mind as having been tampered with. You would have to spend 10's of hours under a scope looking for rub marks that just didn't seem to match up, and then you would never be sure if it was original or replaced. I think that it is possible to tell a replaced part if it doesn't fit properly or is of a different manufacture or different size of numbers, but if correctly fitted and if lets say a trigger from a 1940 42 is replaced with another trigger from another 1940 42, I do not think anyone is capable of telling which is the original trigger to the gun. Perhaps I'm wrong, so inspire me with knowledge.




ViggoG 08-26-2001 12:37 AM

Re: Matching parts -- My $ 0.09+ ;)
 
I think we doth protest too much !

This argument will never end until the terms are clarified for once and for all .


The term "MATCHING" merely denotes that all parts are of the proper type and manufacture.

This identifies a gun of a minimum degree of propriety .



The term "ORIGINAL" Is a Warrant (On the Face) that is most usually accompanied by "A Documented History" or it too is forever open to question by any "Careful Collector" .



When we chose to use these two terms in interchangable fashion we will always have a "Blood Letting Battle" between the "Purists" and all others who think differently.

:[

Without Documentation Who Gives A *$#)(^$$ anyhow .


If a man chooses to pay Top Premium $$$$$ Without Seeing, Documents and then Checking on the Documents' He comes into the class of those who are soon to be parted with his $$$$$ . :[ :[ :[

I intend to hurt no feelings just a note of clarification .

If anyone takes this personally , It is not tinended to be !

My Utmost Apology Is Extended, to any such person, Herewith .

Looks more like $.09 or more Who cares .

ViggoG




G.T. 08-26-2001 12:53 AM

There is no "fair" for the new guys!!......
 
Hello to all! I have watched this thread with interest, and I think bill make a good point...I think that it is pretty tough to match a sideplate, and most times (but not all!) an experienced collector could pick it out...but a Mauser trigger, would be pratically impossible to catch, take down lever, same way.....most seasoned collectors like Bill M, Johnny P, and even me, have handled a lot of lugers over a long period of time. Even more importantly, we have acquired P.08's from sources, and a time frame, that preclude's the modern pratice of restoration, in it's many forms! And, I am quite sure that we have individually paid our dues...but the fact is that, those days are over, and your going to have to learn at an accelated and brutal rate to play in the collectors arena from here on out...some P.08's are going to come around with "Improvements" that you are just not going to catch....there are very few unmessed with P.08's that are still out there for sale! Hell, there were damn few 10 years ago....you're going to have to handle a ton of pistols, and shell out some bucks to learn what you have to learn, to get nice Lugers for your collection.....If you really want to learn about a proof mark, fork out a couple of thousand for a nice unit, and see if that proof mark take on a whole new look when it's in your hands, AND YOU OWN IT! You don't get that out of books! Either you live and breath it, or you keep your wallet in your pocket! there ain't no middle ground! Good luck to all! till...later...G.T.




Thor 08-26-2001 01:11 AM

Re: Matching parts -- My $ 0.09+ ;^)
 
Personally, I see both sides of this story and arguement! I think it occurs often enough that it would be nice if one person from each side (ie Kyrie and Bill M) would write a concise couple of paragraphs relaying their argument and we could enshrine the disertations in the General Information FAQ section for new collectors to absorb. Just a thought! I HIGHLY respect both men! ~Thor~




tom h 08-26-2001 08:00 AM

Re: Matching parts
 
Kyrie, Since there appear to be many different interpetations of the term "matching" (currently some importer are calling some of their EG & Russian imports "matching" only because if parts didn't match during the rework process, they were crudely renumbered). I personally think that your should change your terminology for a righteous luger to FACTORY ORIGINAL or "as issued original". Tom




Kyrie 08-26-2001 08:09 AM

Re: Matching parts
 
Hi Craig,


Youâ??re right on target and understand perfectly


Best regards,


Kyrie






Kyrie 08-26-2001 08:15 AM

Re: Matching parts
 
Hi Johnny,


Iâ??m sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with your comment that â??a part can be original without being THE original partâ??. If any part is not original to the pistol then the pistol is not all original - which is what the term â??matchingâ?? means to a collector.


Regarding calling a pistol that has been made to appear to be something that it is not a fake, â??fakeâ?? is the most descriptive word I can think of.


Best regards,


Kyrie






Kyrie 08-26-2001 08:32 AM

Re: Matching parts
 
Hi Bill,


Absolutely no offense intended, but I think you have missed the point of what â??matchingâ?? means to a collector. Matching is collector verbal shorthand for â??the pistol has all its original partsâ??. If a seller describes a pistol as â??all matchingâ?? he is making a statement of the pistolâ??s condition, and value.


Regarding telling the difference between side plates â??between 2 or more like kind same number sideplates in equal condition made by the same manufacturer within a short time period say 5 yearsâ?? I have two comments. Firstly, the situation arises so rarely that the question never comes up in the real world. Secondly, there are indeed ways to tell which side plate (if either) is original to a specific pistol. This is actually a subject that has come up here, and one of the methods to make determination has been discussed. I will not discuss it further, as I will not aid those folks I view as forgers in an activity I can only see as unethical and unlawful.


Your comment that a Luger which has been made to look like it matches by substituting parts â??will not be devalued but will increase in value because of the matching sideplateâ?? is precisely what Iâ??m warning folks about, and why I call such pieces fakes.


In terms of swapping un-numbered parts, some fakes are easier to spot that others. The swapping of un-numbered parts can be very difficult to detect. Failing to detect a fake does not make the pistol genuine any more than an unsolved crime ceases to be a crime if the culprit isnâ??t caught and convicted. Not getting caught isnâ??t the same thing as being honest


Best regards,


Kyrie






Kyrie 08-26-2001 09:04 AM

Re: Matching parts -- My $ 0.09+ ;^)
 
Hi ViggoG,


I must respectfully disagree with your definition of the word â??matchingâ?? as â??denotes that all parts are of the proper type and manufactureâ??. Luger parts were numbered to a specific pistol because the Luger pre-dates fully interchangeable parts - the parts needed to be numbered. This has given Luger collectors the ability to assess whether a Luger had all original parts by examining the marking of the parts. The unscrupulous and the uninformed have used this characteristic of Luger manufacture as a cheap way to make an mismatched Luger of no collector interest or value appear to be a matched Luger with collector value.


Best regards,


Kyrie






Johnny Peppers 08-26-2001 09:30 AM

Re: Matching parts
 
Good that you agree with those that agree with you, but the pistol is what it is. You can paint it purple and it is still a 1916 Erfurt even though it is not the original color nor is it a fake.




Kyrie 08-26-2001 10:22 AM

Re: Matching parts -- My $ 0.09+ ;^)
 
Hi Ted,


That's an excellent idea - I'll see what I can do


Best regards,


Kyrie




Kyrie 08-26-2001 10:26 AM

Re: Matching parts
 
Johnny,


No one has said it wasnâ??t a 1916 Erfurt - thatâ??s not the topic under discussion


Best regards,


Kyrie






Johnny Peppers 08-26-2001 11:57 AM

Re: Matching parts
 
I went back and looked at the original post, and Bob had an inquiry about getting a correctly numbered sideplate for his 1916 Erfurt. Tom Heller offered his help, and then the discussion ended up by Bob being told that he was creating a fake. The pistol is a 1916 dated Erfurt, and with a new sideplate it will still be a 1916 Erfurt. It will not be a fake, and there was no question relating to fake in Bob's original post. Who got off the discussion originally?




MK 08-26-2001 12:26 PM

Re: Matching parts
 
I disagree. We are having these kinds of problems because people are being very liberal with the use of the term matching.

Matching used to mean that the pistol was in original condition.


With the recent flood of rebuilt imports of all types, the term now means all the numbers are the same, even though the matching numbers may be crude and obvious restrikes.


I think I understand what Kyrie means.


It's the improper use of a collector term by those that would like to create the impression that not original really is.


Confused?


Well, that's what this forum is for. The information on how to tell what is what is here, you just have to ferret it out.


I wondered why Kyrie didn't say what the obvious was until I saw that it was NOT obvious.


Collecting anything can be risky, you have to know your stuff. I mean you REALLY have to know your stuff.


Mike






Bill S. 08-26-2001 01:41 PM

Re: Matching parts
 
Kyrie,


The exact situation of a matching sideplate turning up for an unmatched sideplate gun has happened several times in my collecting career. You say that you can tell the difference but then you fail to divulge how using the excuse that you do not want to inform fakers on how to distinguish the difference even though you said that the exact subject was duscussed in this forum in the past. I still wish to be educated on how one determines the difference, even if you choose to do so by private e-mail.


The bottem line is the perception of the individual collector. If it is impossible to tell, even by an experienced expert that the part is not an original part, then it is matching in my eyes. The notion in my head that the part has been switched may be the only evidence of the substitution and if the switch is otherwise undetectable, then I am satisifyed. If you can educate me on your detection process then I will change my mind.


If you check my profile you will see that I am deeply into the vintage sportscar world and this is a discussion we vintage sportscar collectors have all the time. In this world restoration is an accepted reality though there are parameters which we endeavor to follow. Mechanical parts are generally numbered as in Lugers and mismatched parts effect value. Detecting restamped numbers is a developed expertise but in the world of Lugers there is a special situation where the numbers are not restamped only repeated and the numbers and parts are identical (Again, please educate me on how to tell the difference). We have even resorted to spectroscopy to detect replica chassis and parts. Car collectors however do not split hairs about original air in tires or original oil in crankcases and until one informes me on how to determine the differences in like kind sideplates, I will respectfully disagree with your position.


Ciao,


Bill S.




bill m 08-26-2001 04:05 PM

Re: Matching parts;I agree Kyrie
 
Mike,

That is exactly the point. You would never know the difference if no one would tell you, and do you really think a dealer is going to volunteer this information? Every Luger that you or Kyrie, or I own, is suspect to not being original as issued. Outside of the proper numbers and proofs there is no way that anyone can tell what was put on at the factory and what was put on 5 months ago. Anyone that claims they can tell the difference in a factory installed firing pin, or hold-open, or trigger is just plain full of bull****, in my opinion! All this "restored" and "not original" crap is just that -- "crap", as no one has the capability to tell when the part was put on, being it a part from a like gun. Sure, the inside side plate number gives you a clue on Mausers, but there are exceptions to that also. Outside of a few polish marks, there is just no way to know unless you were at the factory to pick up the gun. Once your neighbor, or friend, sells you that Luger, and they would never mess with it, right, or take it to a gunsmith, or a dealer to look at, you presume it is original and as it left the factory. You do not know this, but this is what you believe. In the real world, you would never be told what was replaced, and you would never have a clue, and you would be a happy little camper with your new toy! I understand Kyrie's point of view, but it just isn't going to happen that way, and for the past 50 years collectors and dealers have been switching parts. No one knows what was put on at the factory, so we have to go by all matching numbers of the same style and finish and correct proofs and polish marks and rub marks. This whole thread is getting ridicious as to what is "original" and what is "restored", as unless you did it, there is no one else going to know!




ViggoG 08-27-2001 11:32 PM

Re: Matching parts -- Au contrair ,Kyre
 
And a Hi to you too, Kyre ;

I must disagree with your interpetation of the origin of Serial Numbers and the use thereof .

To deviate for a moment ;

During the years of WW-2, The shortage of machine tools was beyond belief. Machine tools were at a premium and old machines from the pre-Luger days were being rebuilt and returned to service .

In those days I personally worked in a machine shop that had as as the newest machine A Brown and Sharpe Milling Machine having the latest patent issued in the year 1892 .

This machine when properly rebuilt was fully capable of producing Luger Frames and Cannon Assy's that were capable of full interchangability when manufactured on the proper fixtures and fitted to the gaging systems that could be constructed on the very machines that were used to produce the parts.

Some of these machines were used during the war to produce Steam Turbine Blades More accurately than any fit required of the most critical Luger Parts.

So interchangability was not the problem that spawned the need for serial no's.

The true need for serial no's. came about from the birth of mass production and production changes that were introduced into the product, as a method to record these changes for future orders or parts replacement .

A system of tracking various parts to match the many varieties of needs of the purchaser generated such a hodge poge of weapons of similar but differing changes (the majority of which were mainly cosmetic) that the People at "DWM" were required to introduce a system of tracking contracts .

These same problems confound us to this day when the records on "Spacecraft Parts" often outweigh the finished part .

I know , I used to make them and even designed the fixtures to verify the Quality of these Spacecraft parts .

For any collector to say these numbering systems were developed to verify the Originality of these parts is a bit presumptious .

You are very Knowlegible of the manvarieties and changes that have been made to these by the many different Facilities for production .(some of which my friends altered during the war).

They were an end to fit a need of the day and have been taken and applied to a use that was not intended at the time of their origin .

They were meant to be used to pull parts of the shelf to fill or replace contract parts , a use that remains to this day common to our industrial needs.

Due to the variety of ways that those in authority think , these numbering systems as originally concieved have been changed to hide the truth until they are practically worthless for any use and we are splitting hairs over a few misapplied words , when there is no way to reach a middle ground unless we draw new lines to describe the disputed product .

With all due respect Either or both of us may be on the right track , only a Professor of Language with both your and my experiences can make this descrimination.

Add another $.02

ViggoG





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