What do you think?
 

Glad to meet you all. As you have probably surmised by now, I am brand new to the site and brand new to Lugerâ??s for that matter as well. My reason for being here was brought about by a request of my favorite uncle to see what I can find out about a Luger that he has had for over ten years. He acquired it through a friend that had fallen on hard times and asked that my uncle buy the gun from him for $50. My uncle was somewhat reluctant to buy it at first as he was not really interested in Lugers but saw how desperate the guy was and bought it for $75.

We keep all of our firearms at my fatherâ??s house as he has a large vault that is fire and burglary rated. Recently we were going through some of the arsenal and we came across the Luger again and became more curious about it. I have done a little research on the web but information was hard to come byâ?¦that is until I found this site. Not only have I found a wealth of information here, but I have learned to appreciate and in fact become a fan of the Luger.

My hats off to those of you responsible for the comprehensive amount of information compiled on this site. It has been a joy to peruse through all the sections and read the threads in the forums.

From the information that I have been able to find, it appears that the Luger owned by my uncle was a P-08 used by the German Navy based on the proof markings and is one of the initial 10,000 produced in that it does not have a suffix.

I have inspected all the components and have discovered that all but the magazine have matching serial numbers.

I would really appreciate it if anyone would be able to tell me anything else about this piece. I have included some pictures as well.

I thank you in advance.

Paul

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/DSCN0705.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/DSCN0706.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/DSCN0709.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/DSCN0713.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/DSCN0718.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/DSCN0719.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/DSCN0724.jpg

nice piece,im new too,is that what they call a DWM luger?

i seen one like that the other day locally,nowhere near as nice,it even had plastic repro grips,but had a matching mag,they had a even grand on it which i felt was high not having the original grips,it did have a deep bluing to it

Your uncle didn't do too badly. It looks original to me and is only worth about 40 to 50 times what he paid for it (maybe more). It is a 1914 Variation Navy and, according to Jan Still's "Imperial Lugers", is one of only about an estimated 7900 pieces produced in 1916. The only reservation that I have is that although the markings show appropriate age the font of the "3"s on the barrel does not match those of the frame. Perhaps this is correct, but I will have to let the Navy Luger experts weigh in on this.

From the photos, it does not appear that the gun is properly assembled. The front of the receiver does not line up with the front of the frame. I suspect that the "T" hook on the rear toggle link is not engaged with the mainspring transfer lever.

I believe so. As I was searching through the manufacturer logos, I could not find one with the DWM logo appearing in conjunction with the Model Number in this case 1916.

Thanks for the comments.

Boy you don't miss much. LOL - I took the gun apart to check all the serial numbers and was in a rush to take some pictures that I did not re-engage the "T" hook when I put it back together.

Wow. I think that I will have to break it to him gently that this gun may be worth a heck of a lot more than he thought. Heâ??s getting up there in age you know.

Thanks for the information â?? I donâ??t remember seeing any information on the term â??Variationâ?� Navy, so I will have to look more into that.

You also answered a question that I had about why I couldnâ??t find much information on a model 1916, being that it is a 1914 model produced in 1916. LOL

Thanks again.

You have to be careful, as in the comment about, oh, its a DWM... ;) There are many variations and navy ones are fairly rare... In the luger field, there are probably hundreds of variations, rare ones and then very common ones. You really have to know, or you'll get burned.

As an example, just because it has a 6 inch barrel, does not mean it is a navy. This one shown has the correct attributes at first glance and is probably correct (I am no navy expert), but I have seen some folks buy what they thought was correct and lost a couple of thousand on a wrong "variation"...

Ed

anyway it turns out its a fantastic piece at an unbelievable price....:nono: DELETED BY ADMIN, :rtfm: We are a PG site and vulgarity is frowned upon ;) and members, he did not say anything that bad, just not appropriate ;)

The font is indeed different. In fact there are a number of components that have one of two different types of fonts. After considering your post I read the article authored by Tom Armstrong advising on the proper inspection techniques for a Navy Luger. Tom mentions more than once that the serial numbers font should match exactly.

I followed a number of other tests suggested by Tom and found that everything else seems to be correct, down to the smells as he described. Iâ??m curious now. Everything else about the gun seems to be genuine.
:confused:

Thanks Ed. I will certainly keep that in mind. Is there a good resource which would offer a definitive answer for this particular piece?

Does anyone know if they applied the #SN on the pistols one digit at a time or have something that put them all on at once. Thanks clint

We have several collectors who specialize, just in Navies, since none of them have commented, I have moved this with a forward link to the Navy section. Some folks only check the area they are interested in.

I can't say for sure, but with some years of manufacturing and gunsmithing experience behind me, IMHO, the alignment of serial numbers on the hundreds of Lugers I have examined, leads me to believe that the number stamps were applied individually... although some type of manufacturing jig was probably used to place them...

Cool,
the four digit serial numbers on the front of the frame and on the underside of the barrel should be the same size font. The two digit serial numbers on the underside of the 'Locking Bolt', 'Side Plate' and the flap on the rear of the rear toggle should be the same size font.

The "3" stamp on your barrel and front of the frame has me a bit stumped too. I have seen threes with a flat top and with a rounded top in those locations. Its late in the day for me and I had to go into my artilleries to compare in order to find enough serial numbers with threes to make an absolute correct statement. I may be challenged, but I think that both styles of threes are correct. I am more an expert of the old German style twos. I'll leave the threes to the highly respected (by me) Ron Woods. :)

I hate to challenge another highly respected (again, by me) John Sabato, but I alway thought that there was a fixture used in applying the four digit serial number to the front of the frame and the underside of the barrel. But the fixture was not always tightened properly before the stamping took place on the assembly line. The numbers should be aligned. But, if they are the proper size and style, then they could be off just a little. (A little nit picking here). Since the barrel was rounded and the frame was flat, I think that its reasonable to assume that maybe two fixtures were used. I always have to remember that the Germans were in the middle of a war that was blowing away a lot of men and that this was an assembly line almost ninety years ago.

While your pictures were good, they were not good enough to judge the bluing, the general condition and some of the serial numbers. There is no substitute for an actual physical inspection. But making a determination on what I have seen from your pictures, I believe your gun to be authentic. One of the first things that I key up on is the 'Locking Bolt'. Yours appears the be nice and flat with the appropriate champhered edges. This tells me that it has not been restrawed or messed with. There also appears the be the appropriate wear on the bluing for a ninety year old gun. The grips appear to be good but I would like to know if there is a matching two digit serial number underneath. I think that I would like to make a formal offer of double your money $150. :) I would like to offer more, but since all navy Lugers of the model 1914 version and earlier had wood bottom magazines, your gun is not totally correct. :)

Again, from the pictures that you have submited, I would consider your gun to be a collector quality Model 1914 navy Luger and you should never, ever consider prettying it up by restoring it in any way.

Congradulations!
Big Norm

Cool,
just a little additional comment. Keep this baby well oiled, but very carefully remove the wood grips before oiling. Oil will blacked the wood of the grips and cause this very old and dry wood to deteriate faster. I repeat, be very careful when removing the grips, especially on the left side. If you don't, you may cause what is called the million dollar chip on the left side in the area of the thumb safety. This is old wood and that area is delicate and breaks easily. This damage is not repairable.
Big Norm

Big Norm -

Have to agree with you (mostly) that the chipout underneath the safety lever is "not repairable." I say "mostly," because I have an authentic Navy which has that area of the left grip repaired. It is not observable from the outside and looks almost perfect, but the inside is a very different picture. See attached photo.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload..._navy_grip.jpg

The image below is a closeup of the repaired area. Because the repair is probably old (or made to appear old and dirty) and most likely recheckered, at least in this area; it appears not to be damaged. Knowing that it has been repaired, the abnormal straight front side on the safety lever cutout is a dead giveaway.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...t__outside.jpg
Luke

Big Norm,

First off thanks for spending some time with this piece to help me out. I really appreciate it. I also wondered the same in regards to the two different types of font used. Like you, my assumption was that different fixtures fitted possibly with different font dies were utilized to stamp serial numbers for their respective components. I just couldnâ??t imagine a production line being held up by having to remove the number dies from one fixture to another as the components went down the assembly line, but I am talking from a great deal of naivety here regardless of how reasonable it sounds.

As far as taking the grips off to check the serial numbers and oiling the gun, I think after reading your concerns about possibly damaging the grips as well as Lukeâ??s post has me somewhat reluctant to do this. I live in New Mexico which has a rather arid climate, so metals tend to do fairly well without the aid of to much oil.

Do the grips have to be removed in order to view the serial numbers? Looking at Lukeâ??s post with images of his grips I donâ??t notice any serial numbers. Are they located on the top surface of the grip where it meets the frame?

Oh and after careful deliberation in regards to your offer, my Uncle wishes to respectfully decline at this time even though he is doubling his money since just acquiring a wood bottom magazine will almost surely increase the value of the piece by at least another $50 or so. :D ;)

Seriously, he is getting a big kick out of learning so much about his old gun and its rich history and frankly so am I.

Thanks again for sharing your expertise.

Paul

Paul (cool steel),
I would not hesitate to remove the grips. Just be very CAREFUL. I have removed the grips of every Luger I own to give it a good Break Free oil job, and I have never broken one. The one I show in the picture came to me in that condition.
Best of Luck,
Luke

Luke,
thats a pretty good repair job. But one would have to have the broken off chip to do it. I have talked to a number of restorers and recheckerers and they generally agree that it is pretty impossible to do a reliable repair job. With that said, I have to admit that once I bought a model 1914 navy Luger out of Gun List magazine from a guy in Pa. When I received the gun, I though that it looked very nice. So I started the usual inspection of the serial numbers, which included checking the grips for the serial numbers. The grips had matching two digit serial numbers, but, all of a sudden, PLOP that darned chip fell off as I held the grips in my hands. I called the seller to confirm that I had received the gun and that I thought that it was good and that I was going to keep it. Then I expressed the sadness of the chip falling off of a grip that had matching serial numbers. To my surprise, the guy told me to send the grip back to him with the chip. He said that his son had graduated from Ohio State University with a degree in gun smithing. I did as he said and in a few weeks I got the grip back and it was a beautiful job. I still have that gun and the chip is holding true. So I guess that it is possible. But most restorers and recheckering people will tell you that the repair job will not hold up. But I make it a practice, when I talk or advise new people like Paul, I give them the most likely end result. Its better for them to be careful and safe then to be sorry later.

Paul,
the serial numbers on the grips may be located almost anywhere on the inside. Sometimes they are deep and clear and sometimes they are not. Sometimes they are not there and sometimes they were reinstalled on new grips so to speak. I have the practice of taking off the right side grip first. Then I push my finger through one of the openings (the magazine opening or the right side opening where the right grip was) to GENTLY pop off the left grip at the bottom of the wood. So far, this has worked for me. But sometimes that darned chip is just sitting there precariously waiting to break off as I mentioned above. It was just dumb luck that I talked to the right guy at the right time and got my problem fixed.

If your anything like me, there will come a time when you will just want to do a super great job of oiling your prize and seeing just what makes the thing tick. I am sure that everyone feels that way. So just keep in mind to not oil the wood grips and to be careful about taking that left side off. Oh, and keep a newspaper under the gun in case that darned chip does happen to break off. The newpaper will help you find that tiny little chip.

Oh, Paul! Your Luger is a P-04 and not a P-08 as you called it in your earlier post. The German navy adopted the Luger in 1904 and so the designation P-04 (parabellum 1904). The German army adopted the Luger in 1908 and so you have the designation P-08. Just to test you to see if you picked up on what I said, what was the code for the Luger BEFORE 1904? Hee! Hee! Trick question.

Oh, you said that oiling was not a seriouas problem for you because you live in an arid climate. Well you should oil the gun anyway. Not only to prevent rust but also so that the bluing doesn't dull.
Big Norm

To keep things simple and standardize the meaning amoung collectors, I suggest the following for German MILITARY ACCEPTED lugers (all others require more detail): PO4 = Navy accepted with 9x150mm (6") barrel. PO8 = Military accepted with 9x100mm (4") barrel and LPO8 = Miltary 9x200mm (8") barrel. Commerical, Police and Foreign contract LUGERS should be described in more detail. TH

Well on the advice of others, I successfully removed the grips and was a little disappointed to find out that the grips appear to have a different serial number than the rest of the components. The number appears to be an 11, but on the left grip there is a rogue number 2 next to the 11. The font of the 11 is strange as they look just like two parallel lines as if they were struck using a standard blade type screwdriver.

I also found where a previous owner actually engraved their Social Security number in the frame. :grr:

I assume that as a result of these two discrepancies that the value of the piece is affected significantly? :mad:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/DSCN0753.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2.../DSCN0753a.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2.../DSCN0753b.jpg

The value does go down, not as much for the grips, as the SSN. This is not that uncommon, but a disappointment to find. I assume that it is marked on the edge, so they can only be seen when you take the grips off?


I should say, the desirability goes down to many collectors, thus value. I have a really nice 1911A1 Remington Rand that has a Texas License number on the frame, underneath, but more obvious than your situation. It did make it now a low end collectability to most folks.

Ed

Lead balloon comes to mind...Jerry Burney

As long as the SSN is under the grip it wouldnt bother me, as for the grips those are not 11s but some other marking maybe to aid in assembley, the grips look like they have been on the gun forever. I myself would not be too concerned.
My unbiased opinion is I think you should sell me the Navy because I dont have one.
Now you need a stock, holster, pouch, correct mag. etc., if you sold me the navy then you wouldnt have to worry about such matters.
Nice navy, thanks for sharing
Dante

Dante,
I like your comments and attitude. Obviously you are a person for whom the glass is half full rather than half empty. Seasons Greetings!

Ron, as an armchair mechancal engineer (the result of a past life) , my concept is that the glass is twice as big as it needs to be... :D

I like Danteâ??s attitude about such things as well. Dante, where were you when I was selling my Jeep?:D

And as to the glass being half full/empty. Provided you have a good chaser, whatâ??s the difference.
:biggulp:

The Grips and the SSN just dont bother me too much, if it was a byf or a 1940 42 then I would be more descriminating. I really mis my navys, I kick myself every day for letting go of them. Im on the lookout for an honest navy and will pay market price, also have some nice trading items G43s, 98ks, P38 AC40 1st vara., etc.
Good chatting with you all,
Dante

Hi Dante,

I have some navy guns...perhaps we should correspond.

And, Ron Wood, pls empty your mailbox; have a favor to ask.

Tom A

Tom
Sounds good.
Dante

Tom,
I deleted some of my mailbox entries so it should work now. You can always email direct to rwood1@elp.rr.com

Cool,
sorry I am so late in getting back with you. I would ignore the 'elevens' on the grips. I cannot imagine them having any significance. The '2' may just be an inspectors mark. The SSN may be a different story and I would have to see it to see if it would have any or much price significance at all.

For your information, Ron Wood is correct in stating that Jan Stills reported fewer chamber dated 1916 navy Lugers than 1917 chamber dated navies. But Jan Stills also reported a number of chamber dated 1918 navies. I have never seen a legitimate chamber dated 1918 navy. To my knowledge, all of the chamber dated 1918's that have been reported have had their chamber dates challenged. I believe that the model number 1914's that were made in 1918 were manufactured under a 1916 navy contract and, therefore, had that contract year impressed on the chamber. So the number of model number 1914 manufactured in 1918 would have to be added to the number reported as 1916 chamber date to measure the scarity/rarity. But its meaningless to discuss numbers manufactured because ALL navy Lugers are highly desirable.

Also remember that I was the first to make a bonified cash offer for your navy and my original offer still stands :p
Your very good friend, Big Norm :cheers:
______________________
I may not soar with the eagles, but then weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Thanks so much Norm for the additional information. It still amazes me the amount of data available for an item that is approaching 100 years of age.

Well over the Christmas holiday I had an opportunity to speak with my uncle on all the statistics of this particular piece and explain as best I could the significance of all the markings and general condition of the gun. He was quite impressed and fascinated, and it shocked me what he asked next. â??So how do I go about selling it?â?�

I must admit that I was a bit surprised that he would want to part with such an item, but apparently his appreciation for long guns outweighs his kinship with this piece.

He has asked me to see if I could place it on auction. I am a bit leery about selling something that I donâ??t know much about. Are any of you familiar with any auction sites which operate similar to eBay that cater to guns? If so, any help would be appreciated.

Given the fact that some of you have provided me a great deal of information, I would definitely consider any offers from those on this forum as well. Of course Big Norm gets first crack. :cheers:

Ron, I live in Albuquerque which is as you know a short 4 hour jaunt from El Paso. I would not mind a bit to take a little trip down to meet you and ask you to inspect the piece if you or anyone else on the forum is interested.

Please let me know via PM or e-mail at coolsteel@comcast.net

Thanks,

Paul

Hi Paul,
I sent you a PM.

Paul,
I will be in Albuquerque next week (the evening of the 10th). I will send you an email with my cell phone number and you can reply to it with your phone number. Perhaps if I don't get into town too late we can work out a meeting. I will be leaving the next morning with some friends to go to the Kansas City show.
Ron

Hey Cool, why not keep the gun for yourself? Its a good keepsake as well as a good investment. Now that you know something about it, you can do a lot of bragging too. Bragging is good, especially if you have it. You are also in a select crowd if you have it. I would give a cold Samual Adams to be there when the venerable Ron Woods looks at it. The guy knows his stuff.
Big Norm

A cold Sam Adams eh? A man with good taste. :cheers:

Believe me, if it was in my means to take it off his hands, I would do it in a second. I believe he is looking for funds to expand his business in the short term and probably would not consider an installment plan from me.

Perhaps after meeting up with Ron, I will be convinced that it would be in my best interest to do what I can to acquire the piece myself, even if I have to sell something. I wonder where my wife keeps her jewelry box.:p

Cool,
I am on diet (remember the big in Big Norm), so I only have a Samual Adams when I go out for a broiled fish dinner with a baked potato. (Its surprising how many times I go out for a fish dinner.) Don't sell your wives jewelry, thats a good investment too. Sell the wife. That way you may be able to get yourself an original navy stock and a navy holster and maybe have enough left over to get a fish dinner with a little adult, cold abide on the side. :cheers:
Big Norm

P.S.
On second thought, keep the wife. With prices the way they are for original navy stocks and holsters, you wouldn't have enough left over for the fish dinner. :rolleyes: Hum-m-m But you may have enough for the Samual Adams. I'll have to think more about that. :rockon: