WTK: 41 Holster Value
 

Recently bought a holster for 225$ from a member on the forum, was described as "it is dated and waffenamt marked 1941 to match the gun. It is a nice original holster, that saw battle.". Received holster and the buckle was torn from strap, tool pouch retainer was torn off, and mag area was torn through. None of these showed in pics, nor was he truthful about description. He wants to charge a 50$ restocking fee and deduct 20 for shipping, which cost 7$, marked on box. What is it's real value in that condition? And should I reveal his name and tarnish his image? Also included extra deposit for a luger he had, but now having second thought whether it is in as bad of shape as holster. He refuses to refund deposit, although in an email he said it was refundable. Thanks......................Bruce
https://home.comcast.net/~ratdog42/holster.jpg

Any leather damage should have been given in the description, for $225 you should have got a better holster then you did and I do not care who the seller was, emails about refunding money is as good, or at least should be as good as his word, in this case I would stop dealing with him and take the loss to date as a lesson learned, I stand behind everything I sell and do here and in all my gun dealing, and would encourage you to tell us the seller name so perhaps one of us here doesn't get took by him....sorry this happened.

I to beleive the name should be revealed.

Absolutely! I want to know who the guy is so I never buy anything from him..Sorry for your troubles. This is not how collecting should be...Jerry Burney

I agree with Jerry.

Here is the story from my end, you judge first before I reveal names.
I first contacted or he contacted me around Sept 27 about a 41 Luger. I posted pics to several members on opinions, was told it looked good, but several members said it was overpriced at 1450$. I told the seller if he would take a deposit and I could have the balance for him in about 10-15 days, he said fine. No talk, that I could find in any emails, about a refund if I backed out of the deal. I was waiting for some funds to clear before I sent him the deposit, I finally got around to sending the deposit (600$) about 10 days ago, and requested the holster be sent before I sent the balance for the pistol. Holster arrived Tues. this week and was not what he described. So he offered today to refund the 250$ minus 50$ shipping and restocking fees, which he told me earlier he was a private seller, not a dealer, so what type of restocking fee is it to put the holster back on a shelf in the closet?!?!?!!? His defense is he passed on at least 4 buyers to hold the gun till I got the money to send him, which I understand, but to keep 400$ for 2 mos. waiting is to me a little out of hand. Most people, including me would say "money talks" in a situation like that.
My argument is if he misrepresented the holster the way he did, what is the likelihood he would do it with the gun also? So that made me back out of the deal, and he refuses to return the deposit but refund 200$ for the holster.
That is the story, and true I took 2 mos to get the deal going and he held the gun for me, but was it worth 400$ of his time, I am willing to allow him 150$ for the botched deal, but then again he brought it on himself by offering a sub par holster and not being fully honest in its description.
Let's see if he replies to this forum before I reveal names.......................Bruce

It could be a misunderstanding, folks getting their backs up, etc., but I think the "fees" are excessive.
Although 2 months waiting on a deal and then you backing out could be irritating; as you said, you took 2 months to finalize the deal. (although the holster if as said in emails, was misrepresented)...

**As a buyer I would be mad about the holster being misrepresented, and feel the pistol would not be as shown in pictures (best side shown, etc).

**As a seller, I would be upset that you took 2 months, when you said 10 days. But then, I wouldn't have waited two months, I would have waited 10 days, then said, sorry pistol is back up for sale.

ed

I just found this in an email dated Oct 2. I wrote "I would be willing to send you a refundable deposit to hold the gun until the rest of the money could be sent to you, of course if you agree to that." He replied "I have no problem with that, if you want to send 500 to hold it that would work for me. let me know what you want to do,". So it was brought up and he is not a man of his word!!!! He also fails to see that he didn't describe the holster in detail and won't take responsibility for it...................Bruce

Ed, I also found an email telling him the situation and if he had another buyer, go ahead and sell it. Anyway, I just wrote him and told him "to send me the money for the holster, and I guess you got me!!!" Lesson learned................B

I could understand keeping a $100 (total) as compensation, but $400 is greedy and word gets around, either publically or via email.


I am leery of a couple of "forum" members because of rumours I have heard. That said, I number in the scores of people from these forums that I trust implicitley and would not hesitate in sending them a gun and then receiving payment.


Ed

Bruce, Fine, the story is out for all to see..I agree both with you and Ed. The holster condition should have been discussed and disclosed. To send a holster in that condition without disclosing it tells me the seller is less than honest and you are likely right..the pistol could be the same way.
Ed thinks two months is a long time to finalize a gun deal but I think it's not. I have had trades take place over 6 months.
The guy and his restocking fees are a low life's way of saying I have your money and I am now trying to steal it if you let me.
Don't let this worm get away with it. If you can back up what you say, spill his name and get some results. If what you say is true I want to know who it is. I certainly will NOT deal with people who prove themselves to be less than honest and upfront, especially a member here.
I am sure he is welcome to appear here and explain such behavior to the rest of us just as you have.
I clearly remember the last time this subject came up concerning a large Dealer. He came on and his explination for screwing a member didn't wash with me and I will never do business with him. He might even have something I want on his site but tough luck for us both.
Granted I am a collector not a dealer but the quest for another members money has to be honest and fair. A good deal is where both buyer and seller go away thinking they got a better deal than the other guy. This dosen't sound like either...Jerry Burney

Well Jerry and others, his latest email to me was simply "just close the deal, I am sure you will like the Luger". After this holster BS, he lost credibility with me.
He goes by the name "kunta" on this forum, and he is free to tell his story if he likes. I am done with it, and will take what he offered for the holster and probably never trust anyone on a deal like this again. A lot of personal problems have plaqued my wife and I over the last year and a half from a contractor screwing us on an addition he "built" for us, and this came at a bad time. I explained to him that is why it took me 2 mos to come up with the money, and all I ever wanted was a pistol and a "nice" holster. The odd part about it was the holster came from Bill Shea at the Ruptured Duck, something about it being there on consignment. If he truthfully wanted to describe the holster, he could have pointed me there for questions and pics!!! Thanks for all your help guys...............................Bruce

PS: I have all emails and dates to correspond with my side of things. I feel I did nothing wrong, and I was scammed. If anyone feels different please let me know!!!!

The only guys I ever placed on my "ignore" list and glad I did, and the same for you Ed, glad he is gone just hope Bruce gets some refund on this deal, and Bruce there are lota' of great folks here, some I am dealing with as we talk, a lot has changed hands on nothing more then an email hand shake.....just ask and we'll point you to the good guys....

Dang it Howard!! I thought I was the only one on your ignore list. I feel betrayed...


Bruce,
On a very serious note. We have to deal with enough boosters, highbinders, ripoffs and crooked dealers in the pursuit of this obsession elsewhere.

The forums are our sanctuary away these bone heads. We don't need them here smearing the rest of us with their stink. We look out for each other. Before you buy, and if you're not sure... ask. You'll get very sound advice and all the opinions you can swim with.

I hope this all works out for you.

Ron

Note to self....put Smith on ignore list, but then again I do get a good laugh from his posts....

Im glad this guy got outed but sorry it had to come at someones expense. clint

Good riddance to rubbish. It's not generally possible to maintain a scam for any length of time in the World of the internet. The truth will come out.
Bruce, sorry you were the sacraficial one in this deal but when these people are discovered it is important to tell the rest of the membership.

I got nailed for 400 bucks on a dagger deal not too long ago. It happens to the best of us sooner or later. Jerry Burney

Ed,

I hope that in the process of banning you also blocked his IP address. We wouldn't want him back under another name. Guys like that make it hard for the good guys and smears the name of the Luger Forum.

Dok

Well, here is what the seller "kunta" wrote to me when he shipped the holster to me :
"Bruce, I received the money order today, the holster will ship out
soon, it will come from a dealer in mass. I had it there on consignment. you
should have it by wed. at the latest. let me know when you are sending the 1065 bal, and the ffl. thanks."

I have an answer from Bill Shea at the Ruptured Duck, here is what he told me:


"Hello Bruce I have received your email. I'm sorry for what has happened between you and Tim @*@*@*@. Tim purchased this holster from me an subsequently told me it was for someone else. Once he paid for it he told me to send it to you. Of course I have no idea how it was described to you
but here is the listing as it appeared on my website. Tim has made me aware that there is an issue and I shall forward a copy of this email to him so that everything I say is the same to you and to him. I hope you are able to work this out.
Sincerely,
Bill Shea
>>
>> Hard Shell Holster for the P.08 Luger, in Black
Leather

This holster is a decent example, but the black dye in the smooth, polished
surface has thinned to show instead a dark brown.Piece shows overall
moderate to heavy usage. The flap is in good condition, and so it the long
portion of the securing strap; however, the buckle (still present) has
broken off the shorter strap on the holster body.
Laid in place, it almost looks unbroken. The reverse upper right corner of
the reverse has the usual embossed "P.08" weapon identification, and near the top edge, a Waffenamt mark and the date "41". The belt loops are in good condition, one mostly brown. Overall a pretty good, representative example"

Bill also failed to mention the other defects, but with the buckle issue alone I would not have purchased it. So thanks to Bill for exposing "Tim" for the liar and thief he is!!!! ........................Bruce

My 91 year old grandmother still says "Whats done in the dark allways sees the light"

Here was his latest reply:
"I do not read the forums, If I wanted to rip you off I would not have
sent you an expensive holster that was an original, I would have purchased a 39$ reproduction complete with 41 stamps on the back, but I sent you an original holster. I am coming to the end of my patients with you, either finish the deal I.E. send the holster back and take the gun, or take the gun and sell the holster on eBay, or forfeit your deposit. When I block your incoming emails, I will no longer be hearing from you. I can see why you had so much trouble with your contractor, you bitch instead of working through things, I have received many items that were not what my mind had built them up to be, Human nature, I did not stamp my feet and bitch, I put them up for sale on eBay and usually made money, I just got a magazine fxo luger that was expensive off of eBay, they did not tell me that it had rust and pitting on it. but they did not lie about it either, I saw a good price and bought it.
my mind built it up to be a perfect mags. at half the price, I then
took it put it up on eBay. and sold it for twice of what I paid. Try a life
change and work out things instead of throwing a fit. Just my two cents and you probably will laugh it off. but it works for me."

Is there any legal ramification for revealing his name?

Bruce, This guy tim is sounding a lot like the guy who ripped me off for 400 clams...I wounder how he got back on the Forum as he was banned.
Please let me know the name you have for him, privately by Email if you like but I would have no problems at all revealing his name here.
You seem worried about legal ramifications but he dosen't.
Another thing, I would love to know his eBay moniker if you know it. Gunbroker too...Thanks

Jerry Burney

Hence my earlier comment to Ed... It's not enough to just ban a UserName, he can just sign up with another name... there has to be a link to his IP Address. I think that can be done with this BB Software. If Ed doesn't know how, I'm sure John D. does. He knows EVERYTHING :D

Dok

Yup...Same guy, Tim Babcock out of Wolverine WI. He's the same guy who stole 400 bucks from me.
His name is Tim Babcock from Wolverine MI. I have no idea if he has accounts at ebay or the gun auction sites. He did mention in the last mail to me,
"I will offer you this deal, You wait just like I waited for you, till I resell the gun, I will refresh it on a couple of sales sites, and when it sells I will work a refund when you send the holster back. But you will have to wait just like I waited for you.

So if you watch the sites, it is a 41 byf #1732. Feel free to post this, as I am scared that he will take some sort of action, sorry.

If this is not fair how do you think I felt." (Tim Babcock talking) I am surprised he cares..He apparently does not care that he stole money from me.
This guy is a lowlife of the first order and apparently has many aliases and the ability to worm his way onto Forums and steal with impunity.

I would love to have any information anyone may have on this scum. Jerry Burney

By the way, FEAR IS A DISABLER, the weak will not inherit the Earth.

Here is the latest and where the gun and holster will show up next:

"here's the deal Bruce, I will put the luger and holster up for sale as a rig, I should be able to sell it and pay you a refund of 400$ and you send the holster back, you can keep the holster until I sell the gun if you like. I will contact you as soon as I have a sale. I will not over price the rug, and you can check guns America, the add will be for 1495, and when I am done I will eat the 10$ difference, to come out to our deal it should go for 1505 to come out. I am in no way guaranteeing that it will sell in any time frame. With the holster at that price it should move ok, but like I said before we are in a xmas mode and people do not buy like they normally do. I am moving to Kansas for the winter and will take the luger with me if it does not sell and we can finish the deal from there. but I would hope to have the deal done before as I have to pay my credit card for the difference on the luger I purchased and the one I was selling. "

By the way, all quotes I have been putting in these posts are copied and pasted from all correspondence so far. Thanks...................Bruce

Dok, I don't believe I (we) have that exact capability, so I figure the moderators can keep track of who posts what and keep them in line.

I am pretty sure we can only ban the entire IP range, not a specific, so, if he was an AOL member, well, I would ban a bunch of innocent folks.

On gunboards this is a problem, because there are 10's of thousands of members, so someone gets banned, they use their work email or IP and get back on. The only way is to monitor the boards on a frequent basis, you know, like I do :p and if you see a familar name, you ban them. The old cavet emptor (sp) has to be in play, we just try to minimize what happens. The P38 forum has a good for sale policy, which I have adopted. replacing mine which was fine, but this one went into more detauil.

Ed

You're right Ed,

Banning the whole domain can be problematic. Well good luck...

Dok

Ed, You might recall not too long ago I posted quite an expose on this slime ball but you kicked it off cause I was taking over some newbies thread. It was a warning that didn't get out...Jerry Burney

Jerry, I suggested at the time, that you start your own thread. Taking over another thread is confusing to members who see one title and then see a rant (justified or not), so I suggested starting your own thread.

As long as a member has facts and is not assuming anything it is appropriate to post.



For legalities, see the latest mailing from NAPCA, Rock Island is hitting them VERY hard for something a member wrote and was published in their newsletter. A newsletter is very much akin to a forum such as this. Non-truths or assumptions can bite us in the ass later, so be sure of the facts when they are written.

Ed, Not bustin yer chops..I love ya! It's just that this guy is beginning to tick me off.
Tim Babcock of Wolverine WI is a thief and a scoundrel...I would dearly love him to come after me as I have doumentation he is exactly what I say he is.
kilroy2@intergate.com is his Email if anyone needs to talk with him. He uses only a PO box for a mailing address and keeps his personal information hidden. I was surprised to see him surface here but he showed his true colors.
Jerry Burney

Jerry I was saddened to see that you got taken also, and I have found a dagger in my personal collection of "daggers" that you can have;
Just send $85 in shipping and restocking fees http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_0693b.jpg

Well guys, It didn't take him long to put it up for sale, with the same description on the holster as he did to me!!!!!! I will post pics next week of the holster problem areas, it is at work and I won't be able to get it till Mon.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976804853.htm

He's the link to the 41 byf Luger he's trying sell.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976804853.htm

Tracy

Tim Babcock of Wolverine MI just Emailed me and was angry that I somehow forgot to mention that he initially took $400.00 from me and after 6 months of pestering Emails he indicated he had sold the dagger I had sent back but did not have the money to pay me. I agreed to a payment program, he would pay me $50.00 a month untill it was paid. He paid me $50.00 for 4 months and then stopped. 200 bucks. The last was in June. I have never seen another penny nor have I heard from him untill today.
So...I must apologize and tell you all, the guy did make an effort and I got half my money back so far.

Sorry, Michigan for sure...
Jerry Burney

So is it Wisconsin or Michigan Jerry???? I see you've used both here.???

Dok

Dok, it is MI, Jerry must have hit the wrong key in his first post...........................Bruce

I just filed a complaint with the MI Attorney Generals office online. I feel what Tim Babcock is doing is Internet fraud, anyone else affected by him (Jerry) here is the complaint address:
https://www.ag.state.mi.us/forms/w3htc_c01_new.asp

Well, here is the POS holster Tim Babcock is trying to pass off AGAIN, this time on GunsAmerica as a "nice original" holster. Remember, no mention of the problems, I guess for 250$ they come along for free!!!!!!!
https://home.comcast.net/~ratdog42/tear.JPG
https://home.comcast.net/~ratdog42/tear1.JPG
https://home.comcast.net/~ratdog42/tear2.JPG

Hi Bruce,

Not to debate whether you and Jerry had bad dealings with the seller or not...

But in the G-A series of photos, his photos certainly show what is wrong with the holster. Sometimes a good photo can ''speak" for itself and additional words may not be necessary (???).

I think $ 250 for a holster with the condition-problems shown in the photos is not a realistic price, however.