[Italy] Found a Luger on a lake bottom.
 

Hi all,

I'm an Italian diver and found this pistol underwater, on one of the Italian's lakes bottom.

I would really appreciate your help in finding out some of the history of this gun, if it's possible. But, not for collection or shooting reason, because unfortunately the gun is a "wreck", means that it was rendered unusable by torning and benting it badly.

The Barrel is missing with a part of the chaber/frame that was torn out. The handle-grip (?) is badly bented and the wood grips are gone. Also the Barrel-Receiver group is badly smashed with the frame, impossible to dissasemble it.

Reading some of the thread of this serious and knoledgeable Forum I was able to locate some ID marks on the Gun, but I'm attaching one pic that I hope would say more then my bad English (I have more, if needed).

The Toggle is marked as "S/42" while most of the other parts are marked as "33". The Trigger is marked "35". There is also a mark on the handle-grip(?) that say "0(?).M9.15."

What do you think?

Tks in advance for any help on this!

Bye, Nick

Benvenuto Nick
 

Welcome to the Lugerforum... Your English is quite good. Much better than my rusty Italian...

The Luger that you have found appears to be the result of a collision with an artillery or mortar explosion.

Despite the physical damage, the condition of the metal seem to be very good for being under water for a very long time.

Without a complete serial number, the history we can tell you about this Luger is limited.

If there is a 4-digit serial number on the front of the frame above the trigger guard, then we can tell you a bit more about this gun. Can you please show a photo of this area in sharp focus? With the complete serial number we can probably tell you exactly what year it was manufactured.

From what I see in the photo, and from what you have told me, this gun was a police Luger because there is evidence that it had the sear safety, and magazine safety typical of that model.

S/42 on the toggle indicates that this pistol was manufactured by Mauser, approximately sometime from 1936 to 1939. If the trigger, magazine release and safety lever appear to have been blue like the rest of the pistol, then the gun was made after the change from straw parts sometime in 1937, if the parts appear to have been "strawed" or yellow in color, then the pistol was made before the middle of 1937.

The stamped numbers on the grip are a unit number, which unfortunately, I do not have a reference to tell you which unit, but it would most likely be a German police unit.

I think your Luger would look good mounted on a wood plaque as a wall decoration. A very unique war souvenier...

I hope this information has been helpful.

Hi John, thanks a lot for the quick answer (and for the pity showed about my English...)!

There is actually something prited, a "2" or another "3", on above the trigger guard, but is barely readeble, apart the last two digit that are the same as the other on other parts: "33".

the trigger, magazine release and safety lever seems to be same as the rest of the pistol, so like you said it should be from around the '37.

And, yes even if wrecked, is going to be a very nice souvenir, along with some other stuff like different ammunitions, stuff really easy to find over here...

Nick

Some other detail...

...

I know is too bad to watch...

(I myself would rather have found it in his original shape!!! :cool: )

...

and last...

Hi,

A nice find. Indeed, it's serial number is 233 (with a letter which is illegible). The pistol also has been furbished as a police pistol, the sear safety and the magazine safety are present. Furthermore, the magazine safety is intact (it was removed or partially removed after a certain date on most police guns).

S/42 identifies the toggle as a Mauser toggle, around 1934 - 1935, the frame (with identification) is most probably an earlier DWM made frame. DWM frames were used in early Mauser production.

The magazine is an extruded type, made by Haenel.

A police luger expert could fill you in on some of the details.

ps. You may want to check if the gun still has rounds in the magazine. These too can help you to identify the pistol's history.

Could it be that this pistol was destroyed using some sort of hydraulic press and dumped shortly after the war as part of a disarming scheme?

GvV, I agree with your analysis. The suffix letter on the frame appears to me to be a "g or a y", but either letter is too late for a 1934 or 35, so perhaps a 1936, if a "G" block. TH

Very interesting find Nick! ..did you find some other items also?

Have anyone seen metal twisted this way after an heavy explosion?

Gerben V., Lugerdoc, and Nick,

having seen other views of this Luger, I now agree with Gerben that this Luger was intentionally destroyed, probably using hydraulic equipment as he suggests... the forces necessary to squeeze the toggle as shown were very strong... it may have been some type of chopping machine.

The serial number, I believe is 3233, as a close examination of the front of the frame shows a profile for a three, very similar to the last two digits, before the "2"

The suffix is likely a "u'... I don't think it is a "y" because the top of the mark does not look like the "y" suffix marks I have seen, but it does look like the "u"...

perhaps one of you could look up 3233u and get a closer fix on when this gun was made...

Since the magazine was still in the pistol, I also believe that there may be ammunition still there as well.

okay, it has a unit marking on the grip, so this brings up some intersting thoughts...


Sear safeties were put on AFTER 1932, but magazine safeties were taken off after 1935...

The marking S/42 was on slightly later guns as said above...

Unit markings were no longer allowed after a certain point.

I wonder if this is a put together gun, AFTER WW2 and was disposed of by someone...

Ed

It looks to me as if this pistol was crushed hydraulically along with other pistols or equipment. The forces exerted on that luger came from different directions. This would suggest multiple passes through the press (I doubt that), or more likely it was crushed in a pile.

I'd be surprised if that lake bottom wasn't littered with the remains of equipment (at least at one time).

Jack

Hey guys!

I knew this one would have fire up some interest in finding a bit of his story...

Well... Gerben, John, there's no ammunition in there, as far as I can see.

And, yes, the bottom of our lakes are, obiouvsly, littered with thousand of different pieces of any kind. From big cannons to small machine-gun and rifles ammunition. We have also seen 3 cannons, some huge plane bombs and also a small Italian tank... but, hey I'm getting OT...

BTW, it is very nice to have at least some historical information about this pistol and this thanks to all of you.

Bye!

It may be a long shot but my Dad was in Italy during WWII. He often told me about all the guns and ammo that his air group blew up or crushed. Also how they use to fish with explosives.I wonder if he had anything to do with this? I hope not. He said that they found warehouses full of weapons,and if they reported it that they would have to guard it until Headquarters got around to sending trucks to haul it away. SO they would destroy it themselves and say nothing.

Jack, from my experience and I bet yours, I have seen guns crushed this way the last 30-40 years, by law enforcement. I know we'd all like to believe it was from the war, (and obviously the gun is), but my feeling is the damage was done on purpose, after the war...


Ed

Morgan,

No, nothing of this kind. But I will pay more attention to these kind of "items", in the future... might get one in a better shape!

For now, I have some like 50mm ammunition from WWII and some rifles ammunition from WWI...

Pipeman,

I'm also aware of these stories. There were places full of weapons and at the end of the war, there was a lot of "withdraft" of these, so the people in charge decided to stop this... and near the lakes the best, easy and inexpensive way was to trow everything in the water (considering that ours lakes, being from glacial eras, are pretty deep right from the shore... deepest is almost -400m, but belive me you can drop to -100m right if you jump in the water...).
That is why we can found stuff in really good conditions, being under the mud, in fresh water and (maybe) not too dangerous becasue inerted from the warehouse.

But, sometimes also stuff that was founded on the fields, like plane bombs, mortar projectiles, mine and other ammunitions, not inerted and trowed also in the water...
So, becasue of that is not very healty to play with this things, even if underwater...

Ciao!

Where I can take a look at this list???

According to Still's Third Reich Lugers. The 2nd Variation 1937 S/42 was produced in the 1500 t- 400 b serial range. A 1937 would also have the large S / 42 toggle mark, as on Nick's find.

Ron

Ron, nope. They were the same size as the 42 :)

Hi Nick,
Welcome to the Lugerforum from another Italian.
Really nice find!!!
Cheers,
Mauro

Gerben,

I thought that the earlier 1937s had the large S. What were the large S dates?

Ron

The marking on the front grip strap, along with the evidence of the pistol having had both sear and magazine safeties almost certainly identifies the frame a being a DWM that was manufactured and issued to the Prussian Landj�¤gerei (rural constabulary) in 1929. It was weapon 15 of the Landj�¤gerei of the administrative district of Magedeburg. The letter suffix would be either s, t or u, strongly supporting its identification as u.

Clearly, the toggle train was replaced with the later Mauser S/42 train.

Send this one to Thor. Maybe he can fix it--he does wonders on the old ones. Sorry, I couldn't resist making the suggestion.

Ciao Mauro, nice to meet you too.

Saw your web site after I subscribed here, nice!

... maybe I got hooked up with this Luger thing!!! :D

Nick

hey Don, thanks for the further informations!

could also the Trigger have been replaced, being marked "35" instead of "33", like most of the other parts?

I'm close to have a little tag to be put on the gun's wood frame I'm about to finish...

Thanks!!!

Nick

Hey hey... :p I read about some of Thor's works...

Had the same tought before... "maybe is possible to restore it!"

But, on a serious side, even if possible, does it worth for the costs it would take and his "historical" value???

Nick

@ Ron, this is the datail of the Trigger. I think I also noticed that "hole" next to the Trigger that I didn't noticed in other pistol's pictures in the Forum gallery... is that something different from age/models?

Nick, the hole you are thinking of, is from the magazine safety. Often found on police Lugers.
The Luger would make a great display item:)

Nick,

There is no way to tell when the trigger may have been replaced. It may have been when the toggle train was replaced or a simple mix-up of parts when the gun was stripped for cleaning.

Ok, thanks to both "Morgan" and Don,

Almost done with the frame to hold the souvenir!

I'll post a pick later on...

Thanks to all!

Nick, Have you shot it yet?????? Sean

Ok guys!

I'm done with that. Here we go the final result, just in front of my desktop...

Actually, to add the cherry on top of the cake, I would add next to the pistol a little "window" with his the historical data, that you kindly finded for me...

What about:

" 1929 Luger DWM
Manufactured and issued to the Prussian
Landj�¤gerei (rural constabulary).
Weapon 15 of the Landj�¤gerei of the
administrative district of Magedeburg"

Or any better idea on the model description???

As always, thanks in advance!

Naaaaaa... it's a collection ones!

Would you risk to ruin his collectors value???

:D

Nick
That looks entirely to neat to be a mans workspace. All jokes aside thats a great looking display. clint

Clint,

... guess what took me the greatest time: to clean up, the oiling, make up a nice frame for the Pistol... or clean up my desk... :roflmao:

To you the hard choices...

You can win :cheers:

Nick,

You're description is perfect. You may want to add that it probably was used by the German military, seriously "deactivated" and thrown into Lake _______ where you found it.

Good point Nick! THAT is a very good idea. Looks great. I never would have thought of that. Good job, well done! By the way, did you build the desk to fit that hole, or the other way around? nice fit. Thanks, Sean.....

@ Don, Ok than, that's will be... maybe also with the "tentative" S/N 3233u... Thank you very very much!

@Sean, Tks! belive me, I had to go around and dig it in some antiquary shop... it was as you see it and fit perfectly the spot!

So, Men, I'm pretty done with that. The Thread was maybe long enough and since I don't "really" own a Luger, I'll stick around, in time to time to check out...

It's not so easy to keep weapons at home over here. Maybe Mauro si going to correct me, since he's Italian too... and then I might going to get one/some, since I always liked guns.

My beloved Grandfather had an automatic gun and form the mag I saw a long ago, it "could" be a Gliesenti/Beretta... together with the Luger, it would be a good start for a newborn collection... no?

Was a pleasure to meet you all, Sirs

Take care and have a good Luger time!

Ciao!

Nick