"god is only pretend"
 

There is a member whose signature line reads, "god is only pretend".

I am posting this thread to give my opinion on the matter.

I am not against the posting of positive, non-secular phrases or ideas. I do feel that "god is only pretend" is most certainly a challenge to all of us who do believe in some higher authority. How about, "I do not believe in god" ? That would certainly convey the thought without provoking anyone.

If the coin were flipped, wouldn't it then be okay to have a signature "Atheists are dead wrong" ?

I do not intend this thread to become a debate over whether or not there is a God. It's foolhearty to undertake such an excercise. I would like to know if anyone else is offended by this signature. I believe it is challenging in its nature.

Am I being overly defensive?

Jack

P.S. I do not intend this thread to become a debate over whether or not there is a God.

Yep, Jack, you are being overly defensive. If you do not wish to open a debate, let sleeping dogs lie. As a Christian I am also taken aback by the need of some individuals to profess their faith in their signature block. It is inappropriate, but I do not see the need to single them out for censure. So I choose to ignore what could be considered excessive religious fervor, just as I choose to ignore non-belief.

Ron,

It cannot be expressed any better... Thank you!!!

Ron

Ron,
Here's a highly religious signature from this forum:

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

It's just a quote (from the Bible), doesn't challenge anybody, and doesn't insinuate that anyone else is wrong. It only has meaning if you believe in Jesus.

"god is only pretend" is a call out.

You didn't mention if you see a difference.

Jack

Jack, while Ron W. has some good points, I am with you all the way....never back down.

This is exactly why any religious and political views and opinions should be

kept private.

Jack, It's only a "callout" if you allow it to be. And allow Howard to stir the pot!!!

Lets stick to guns and collecting.

I too find it offencive.
That being said. I can find no where in our constitution where I have the right not to be offended.
I couldn't disagree with gentelman more, but will defend his right to say it with my last breath!!!

As a very long time moderator, and sometimes webmaster for this site, I would have to say that The Lugerforum doesn't as a policy limit freedom of speech unless that speech, or in this case text, is intentionally intended to offend someone or a group of someones...

The Forum Decorum document, drafted many years ago by Dok, our webmaster emeritus, and approved by what was at that time generally considered the "Board" (a non-public body of members who guided the content and direction taken by this forum, is still valid... while general in nature, it does define what is considered inappropriate behavior on this forum.

As most who frequent this forum are well aware, I have never made any secret of or about my faith... but when I mention it in public, including on this forum, it is never done to incense others... but rather a call to others who believe as I do, to respond to a specific request for prayer... it is always done in the General Discussion Forum... where non-Lugerforum topics are and can be discussed, provided they are not intended to be derogatory or intentionally offensive.

FLAMES of any type are not permitted on this forum... but an expression of one's beliefs are not a flame...

My own signature block is a direct quote from a document I am sure you all recognize... this quote embodies my personal philosophy about life and how it came to be... it is not a call-out as described by Jack above, and I can't consider the "god is only pretend" line to be either...

My personal opinion on the above signature line is quite different from the one I have and enforce with my Moderator hat on... IMNSHO, if you can't look around yourself and see the evidence of a Creator, you are not looking very hard... but that is YOUR choice... I would encourage you to look further at the evidence... and ask questions of those who don't believe as you do... you just might be missing something.

So in closing, despite my personal concern about what the signature line says, I can not see where the forum decorum has been violated...Anyone who disagrees is welcome to contact me off-line via PM, to discuss the matter.

I also feel that Ron Wood could not have said it more eloquently... ignore those feelings and sentiments of those with whom you disagree... Kudos to you Ron... Your level-headedness is just one of the many reasons you are a moderator on this board... I hope you always keep this site as your internet home...

In a similar vein, for anyone who REALLY believes that life is the result of complete randomness and ends in a slow ride in a hearse... I welcome your personal contact and a cordial discussion on a personal level about the differences in our philosophy... and the bases of our individual belief systems...

... and Jack... I absolutely love your line ... "Athiests are DEAD wrong!" :D

NOTE: This post has been edited by me to emphasize (in bold type) that the invitation for personal contact was meant to convey off-line via PM or email and not on the forum because there is no need to involve anyone in the discussion except those that have a direct interest in the matter. - thanks, John Sabato

John, it is your bolding of your signature lines that are obvious reference to God. I take it that way and I am sure others do also. I know where the lines are from, but you have chosen lines that are religious in nature.


blayne

Off my chest...
 

Thank You all for your sage advice.

Thank you all for indulging my fist shaking. I really am a person with a lot of class... only problem is it's all low :( .

Messages received and understood.

Jack

Horsefeathers, Jack. There is nothing low class about your response, it was from the heart.

To the faithful, the faithless, and those not too sure:

I am still pretty new here and just getting to know more of you a little at a time.
Please take these few words as an expression of my fondness and respect for you. I know you've heard it before.

It is one of the basic tenets of religious faith, particularly of Christian faith, to express or confess that faith to others. It is part of the covenant with our Lord. Our constitution guarantees freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. There is undeniably a conscious effort on certain quarters of our society to purge all religious expression form public view. In spite of this the truly faithful WILL continue to confess with their lips and their pens, not to show anyone how good they are but to let others know how great He is. Christians know they are not perfect but they also know they must strive toward perfection. Part of that is to show by example the power and goodness that comes from faith in the Creator. Who will know where that goodness originates unless they are told that it comes from God?

My own signature line applies to the existence of higher intelligence and everlasting life, not just extraterrestrial life (Sagan) or WMD (Rumsfeld). Fact is, I see evidence everywhere and all the time. My own view of atheists is that they choose to pretend God does not exist. I tried that at one stage of my life but the evidence overwhelmed me.

Now, if you will excuse me, I'm having a little problem with the authenticity (or lack thereof) of a Navy-style Luger on another page. There is a guy you all know over there that has no compunction about expressing his opinion. Gotta love him!

God bless you all,
Russell

Dear Mr Wood - you echo my own sentiments exactly, except that I am Jewish, not Christian.

My religious fervour, or lack of it, is a matter between me and the Almighty.

Best wishes

tac

Jack, I totally agree with Ron Wood on this point. There was nothing low class about your query or your feelings... This thread is a discussion of different points of view, not an argument.

Blayne,

... the lines I have chosen for my tag line were chosen carefully...they state unequivocally that we are a free nation, and that all who live here enjoy the same rights and privileges and chances at success... they are also the legal evidence that the founders of this country so believed in the existence of a Creator, that they recognized that fact in official documentation that they based the establishment of this country on it. So yes, they do reference the existence of a Creator as the basis and from whose authority all our unalienable rights extend... the phrases would not be bolded, if I had not intended them to have emphasis... the written word cannot by its very nature convey tone and intonation about the feelings they are intended to express.

It doesn't matter how many times I read those words, I am still in awe of the insight and intellect of the founding fathers and their unabashed acknowledgement of the being to whom they owe their existence, and what they accomplished with His endorsement... We are not the greatest nation on the face of the earth by chance... nor are we perfect... only the best that has come along so far.

thank you ALL, and especially you Jack, for your thoughtful and sensitive sharing of your feelings on this matter... discussions of this nature, while uncomfortable for some, are informative, enjoyable, and in no way threaten the "peace" we all enjoy here on this site as we enjoy our favorite hobby... They just cause us all to think.

Well John, I guess I am NOT alone! Thanks Jack for bringing it out. Sean.....

John, I disagree completely, and I am not happy this thread has gone this way. YOU believe this is acceptable, I do not. As a moderator, we should not be forcing the issue, and this thread forces a religious issue and you and others have pushed it. This forces the issue far more than did Kuntas three words in his signature.

Folks did not like kuntas signature, and this started???? Because you are religious, you feel this thread is acceptable. I have already had one member write me, he refuses to stay on a forum pushing this, he is a Christian but feels that this is not acceptable and has deleted his avatar and most of his profile. Is this what you want? Because you feel strongly you feel this is acceptable as a moderator. I do not.

This is a Luger forum, I thought non-secular and welcoming to all. That is not what I am seeing at this time.

Every signature should be about Lugers...
I'm Atheist, but if it is not written "death to Atheists" or "You have to believe in God", it doesn't matter for me...

read fast!!
 

:) All I know, Is if you're going to poke someone in the eye with a sharpe stick on this forum, you'd better write and read fast!! Cuz your post is going to go away pretty darn quick!! My hats off to the moderators on this forum... you're doing a great job! best to all, til...lat'r...GT:cheers:

com'on Ed and help us out, stick around....we've haven't even gotten to the same sex Luger collecting partners.....you should read Auctions Arms open forums, we here could not hold a candle to 'em....best to Terry/

The First Evangelical Self Rightious Forum

Hypocrisy and Ridicule is our moto


Good Christians???

Timeout!
 

Hi chaserII, definitely an interesting viewpoint... it would be fun to discuss it ...but I doubt that you'll be here long enough?? ... as you obviously didn't read the previous post .....sooooo, best of luck to you! til...lat'r....GT :) :bigbye:

My point exactly. It all depends on who's eye you poke the stick in.

The Taliban has the same point of view. Is that what it's coming too?

I don't recall that Jesus taught that. I do recall forgiveness and tolerance. Something sorely lacking in this thread. With the exception of one or two.

Have a good day

missed point!
 

Hi chaser II, your reading skills seem to be fine.. but, your ability to comprehend seems to be a bit bent... nobody knows you?? You come outta nowhere?? Your comments are from left field...You really don't warrant a response ... I think maybe your the same guy that has the rusty "fxo" mag??... It's really quite simple..this is a Luger forum, either talk Lugers, or...go away! Have a nice day... til..lat'r...GT

No Comment...

Hi Ed,

I am not sure what issues you feel anyone has been pushing...

All I see are the expression of opinions... and replies directed to comments based on other and opposite opinions... I have reread the entire thread and although the thread is Off-Topic, it doesn't seem to fit the category of a violation of the rules in the forum decorum...

I thought I had been pretty clear in stating that... I support Ron's original premise wholeheartedly...

As Pipeman45 said, I may be in disagreement with some of the sentiments in this thread, but will defend their right to express them here as long as they do it in a civilized manner.

I do see now that my original invitation for discussion may have been misinterpreted because of my choice of words and opened the door for public discussion, and that was not my intent... I have modified my last post to clarify that I was talking about private communications of those concerned...with me personally and I have already started receiving inquiries...

As far as continued discussion here, while not prohibited, I suggest we take Ron Wood's initial advice about letting sleeping dogs lie... :D

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/sleepingdogs.jpg

If you and I need to talk off line, please let me know.

Best to all of you, especially Ed.

Well I know someone is up there!! After all, The Redskins Won this weekend!!!!

This is a rather interesting discourse.

From where I sit, I can not think of any reason to tag a contribution to this forum with a line that blatantly throws in the faces of most contributors. Whoever this fellow is, I imagine that he may be at the same stage of life's travel as I was so many years ago.

I started out life as a very dedicated Episcopalian (devout is a word that would never be used to describe an Episcopalian). When I went away to college and became educated and knew everything there was to know about any subject I declared myself a proud atheist. In addition to atheism I also spent an inordinate amount of time chasing girls, hunting and drinking.

Consequent to my enlightened life-style I soon found myself a member of the Yankee army (1969). At this point in life I began to reevaluate my position vis-avis atheism and took the cowards way out by calling myself an agnostic, just to be safe.

After the army I became the father of two little tiny humans and thought my position through to where I felt that there probably was a God.

Now at 59 years I pray that there is a God. I guess I'm just not as smart as I was in college. Nowadays if I want to challenge someone I do it by questioning what's in their head not in their heart.

a good lesson in your words!
 

Very, very well spoken George... a lot of reflection in your words.... I agree wholeheartedly! I can tell you've been thru a few tight or tough trama ones... best to you George, til...lat'r....GT BTW, to all, I'm over my snit now... so, it's back to normal GT for me! :cheers:

George -

You and I traveled the same road. I am just thankful I didn't die during those agnostic college years when, like you, I was certain I knew everything. Interesting commentary.

Regards,
Luke

I am sorry ToggleTop, but I know of no justification why this thread should be deleted... it is a perfectly legitimate Off-Topic thread...

With that said, I am really confused as to why this thread has caused so much uproar... There has been only expression of personal opinion...

Maybe all should re-read my last (previous) post in this thread... yeah the one with the photo... if this thread isn't your thing, then please just move on to some other thread... my continued advice is just let sleeping dogs lie... This thread will die it's own death due to lack of interest in short order.

Waste of time?! No way! Come on guys, We live, we learn. By the way, I am sure the gentleman we speak of has read all of this. I would like to say to him: Don't take all of this the wrong way and WELCOME. You sparked a conversation and it made me think. What did I learn, Well I learned that George is a man I would want to know a lot better! Thanks, Sean.....

I wrote this for a friend of mine... a confirmed atheist

"Food For Thought"

Too often we cannot see the forest for the trees. I believe that the answer to your search lies within your own reach. Life is a *gift*... a morality play... a test of wills & strengths... double-bind scenarios without clear cut options. I believe that *we*... all things in the cosmos... are manifestations of God... we are all created in His image & the corollary holds true as well. We all have a common ancestry... even today, the human genome project shows very little difference amongst us all... a shared bond as it were. To use an analogy... our souls are like cells in a synergistic totality... a collective spirit with a purpose... a destiny to fulfill. Do we need empirical data to see the complexity, the harmony, the beauty in the world about us... the eco-system, the geometry of space/ time, the mathematics of music... the seemingly random chaos of true order? The cause & effect chain is an equation that goes far beyond man's intellect. We have a choice... to ignore our destiny... to live like animals or to share our humanity... our compassion. There are forces of good & evil in this reality... that we use to create or destroy. If you study quantum theory... you soon realize that we are merely overlapping fields of energy & matter waves. Perhaps nothing exists outside the mind of God. The macro/ micro-cosmic world of infinite variables & possibilities flow between us as a universal thread. There is a common denominator... we all have our origins in the beginning of time itself... the moment of creation. Out of the nothingness that is the void of space, come the building blocks of all things. The fusion of existence & nonexistence, matter & anti-matter, life & death, good & evil... these are all elements of a system that abides by irrevocable rules. What we call the past... what we call the future... are all illusions separated by an *eternal* now! There is a vibration... a harmonic that permeates this dimension... on all levels... that is the life force. I believe in an evolution that dates to the inception of this phenomena... that of a *directed* intelligence that preceded the "Big Bang". There exists a dynamic tension... a differential that lends itself to study; chemistry, biology, physics & mathematics can only delve so far. A man needs to look inside for the answer... we are all in the image of God & therefore a manifestation of that power. The *host* organism will pass recycled forever while the *spirit* becomes One with the source of all things. Through engineering, we see the works of man... the trees of knowledge manipulated to the will of what our aspirations dictate. We create our own heaven & hell. Our passion to go beyond our own transcendence is our life blood. When our will becomes the will of our own divinity... we can only then see our true nature. God Bless!

:)

This thread is thoroughly enjoyable and the thoughts given here reinforce my fondness for the members of this community. I have traveled the very same roads that many here have trod and found I had gone the wrong direction. But without turning back, we all arrive at the same unavoidable place. And here we are, sitting by the side the road, trying to unravel the knot of human life and death.

This is a wonderful forum!

I'm more interested in whether John took that picture himself than I am in the argument at this point.

Nah, I got the photo in a Google search for sleeping dogs... I thought it was a pretty funny photo! :) and quite appropriate for the discussion.

photo??
 

Hey John, Remember very, very early on, when there wasn't any photo of me in the gallery.. and either you or doc posted that very interesting (GT sighted!) photo of me... perhaps you still have that... I laughed my butt off on that one... :) post it if possible, best to you, til...lat'r....GT

Sorry GT... that was John D. I think... I don't have a copy of the photo you are referring to... perhaps he or some other member has it in their library...

How's you healing and PT coming from your rebuild surgery?

My religion is "Luger"
My Bible is "Lugers at Random"...

Just a joke, but in my case, it is not false!

And I never believed Santa Claus was real...

I understand and I aggree with the people who need to believe in something, until these people dont force me to believe.
But I prefer to hear a bell when I open my windows in the morning, than a roaring guy stricking in my "atheist" ears 5 time a day...

Santas not real?? ..so that's the reason I don't get those Lugers for Christmas :rolleyes:

Anyway.. I will still try to be a nice guy throughout the year, not poking good people with sticks. Who knows what more there is, if not Santa.. One thing is out there for sure, that would be other peoples feelings, see no reason messing with those.

Having been DRT and thankfully having a qualified nonsqueamish medic closeby who really knew what he was doing I tend to lean to the believer side. You'd never play Russian roulette with an 1911A1, never step in front of a bus doing sixty, never step off a 100' bluff with boulders below, ect, ect, but you'd take a position you aren't sure of which will last a real long time. Go ahead. Take a chance. Not like you won't have a lot of time to think about it once its all over. In fact, if you are so damn sure, end it all right now. Step on over. Only one way to find out. Not as if we are going to live forever anyway.