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Anyone see the Simpson's black widow posted today?
$10K. Looks super nice with unusual grips. Opinions? Not looking to buy, just curious on it.
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I can't believe the grips are original! Take a good look at the logo, notice it has a 15% slant that matches the angle of the grips!!! It distorts the Eagle and the swastika!
Do you really think that would pass the nazi smell test? I think the engraver would be shot on site!!! Bob |
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Nice looking Luger, but slightly (WAY) overpriced!! I doubt the originality of the grips!! :eek:
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I examined this gun and grips last weekend at Louisville. Bob let me remove the grips to look at the backs. The grips appear to made from the same material that Black Widow grips are made from, i.e. hairy black bakelite material with proper threaded holes. Bob said that Kenyon saw another set of grips like this years ago and had tests run on the grip material and it was the same material as real grips. Bob said Kenyon didn't own the gun or grips on the test piece so I don't know how he obtained material for sampling. The grip material appears period correct at least as best you can tell by eyeball inspection. I guess the grips could have been made by the company that made BW grips but I can't accept that they were issued on the gun and that was the opinion, for what it's worth, that I expressed to Bob. Even if they were made by the grip company during the WWII period, I don't know what would justify the asking price. I guess you can ask anything you want; doesn't mean anyone will buy. Then again you know what old P.T. said.
Tom |
If it distorts the insignia on the grips, I'd really have to doubt the originality of it being "wartime" grips. The Germans are way too anal about little things to let this happen. But, then again, I'm absolutely no expert.
On the other hand, wonder if it was some sort of custom job done for an officer or something? Sounds like there was another set of grips like this from the previous thread. Anything in the books on this? Seems the grips are what is commanding the price tag mainly. Interesting to say the least though! |
custom just wasn't done on lugers or p38's... you see "maybe" a shoulder holster, but you don't see holster modifications, you don't see engraving on carry pistols, you don't see nickled guns that are real, you don't see official modifications to german guns. I think a post-war modification, maybe by the same company that made the grips originally...
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I wonder if these grips would pass the "Sabato Oval" test?
On the other hand, the price may reflect the R&D required to fool him. Jack |
OK, lets take this to another perspective!
The year is 1942...Germany is in the middle of a World War, the Germans stopped putting wood grips on lugers because of material and production shortages. (A) the Germans have enough finances and resources to take the time to make a few specials grips for a P.08 that will be going out of production for their army the same year? (B) Some Officer has the time and the money to invest in one of a kind grips for his personal ego? (Not busy enough on the Western front)? |
Opps...sorry, its only 1941! (still doesn't change A & B)!
And in the early "r" suffix, when exactly did the bakelite grips start appearing? |
Does not matter as it is not anything remotely close to an accepted variant and even if it was who cares enough to pay that?.
Its a 1500.00 gun with a stupid # on it. Some silicon valley moron will probably pay it as well. |
Could it be that somone melted out the safety pin type device on the back of a uniform emblem and branded the grips? Perhaps heating it with a soldering iron. I believe it was bent up a little prying it off the first side and then applied to the other. I will try it with my BW grips and see.:roflmao: :cheers:
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Heating up Bakelite to branding temperature would probably just burn them. Note that the bias angle of the insignia is different on each side so that they match the grip angle.
From the pictures, it looks like these are -really- nicely made. There have been several discussions of bakelite/plastic grips on both this and Jan Still's Forum. I admit that I have not paid close attention to the discussions, so forgive this question if it is naive or unimformed. Do I recall that the original molds still exists, and that the composition is known (or perhaps standard)? --Dwight |
One thing to look at, is the angle of the swastika in the circle, anytime you see a swastika on a banner or any stamp the swastika is turned in the circle. The legs of this swastika are perpendicular to the wings of the eagle, all wartime crosses are at a 45 degree (or so) angle. I am no expert on any of this stuff, but when I saw the eagle and cross, that is the first thing that stood out to me. Based on that I would be suspicious.
Oh yeah, Simpsons sells a lot of stuff that is way over priced, just look in the accessories -German and find the ZF4 scope case, it is a repro and worth no more than 250$!!!! |
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I'm can't hold a candle to Frank's expertise on Mausers. So his doubts may be well founded.
As far as the argument that 1941 was too hectic for frivalous accutraments, isn't quite accurate IMO. Germany's high command thought that they were on top of there game in 1941. They felt that they were going strong. I think that many of them were still functioning on ego. I believe that it is highly possible that an officer or political official could have had these custom made. The 'Branding" theory isn't plausible due to the "Relief Moulding" of the grips. In other words the Eagle is higher than the checkered surface. If melted or branded in after the fact, the eagle would be pressed in below the surface of the grips or the checking around the eagle would be damaged and material would be displaced. These could have also been custom made as way of gaining favor or as a little "Thank You" or "Perc" from the execs at Mauser for some politcal official who may have "enhance" or gained a Gov't contract for them. Just my thoughts. They do look to be intricate and well made. And my guess would be that they could be authentic. The price is a "touch" beyond reality however... Ron |
I'm sorry Ron, I can't buy the one-off custom thing even for a factory exec... the costs involved in creating the one-time use injection mold for the bakelite would be enormous...
The fact that the insignia is slanted and not as it would appear if printed on paper is another issue... I am with the consensus that this would never fly... Just look at the so called "party leader" type grips on the small walthers... the emblem is perfect. The emblem is absolutely part of the grip and not inlayed or applied. It was part of the mold. IF I had the money and time to create something like these grips, I would use a computer for the design and engineering... they are wonderful tools... I make my living with them. They are also capable of taking a "perfect" emblem and morphing the design so it slants in the direction of the checkering... Need one to slant the other way? no problem... just mirror the image and plant it on the plain checkering... or just morph it from scratch 15 degrees the other way. A set of molds like this would cost several thousand dollars to produce, and would only be cost effective if you were gonna make thousands of grips... I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see the grips start turning up on the auction sites in the near future... Another thing that doesn't make sense is that Charles Kenyon, one of the top 5 Luger historians and researcher had the opportunity to examine a "unique" set of grips like this but never reported it in his books or photograph them... What was said about Kenyon not owning the gun, or the grips but still taking a sample of the grip material for a test sounds like snake oil to me... I know that a few of you members know or have met Charles Kenyon personally...unfortunately, I haven't had the pleasure, but look forward to that someday... If you know him or how to contact him, just call him and ask him about this... and while you are at it, please invite him to join this forum... I can't accept that he might be so computer ignorant in this day and age that he doesn't use the internet... he should be one of us. I have a lot of respect for the Simpson outfit as dealers... They stand behind what they sell... Brad Simpson is a member of this forum... but they are not making any claims of authenticity on these grips... and have overpriced the gun just because they can... if it doesn't sell, the price will come down in increments until it does. They will offer for sale what they find and sell it for what the market will bear... they wouldn't put their reputation at risk for a few thousand dollars... that would be foolish business logic. Look at the border around the checkering... it is too wide to have been made from the same mold as production grips... the imitation grips are not the quality of originals, and don't fit as well. ... likely the same source for those imitation black widow grips a few years ago that sold for as little as $12.00 on ebay...and gunbroker, and gunsamerica, etc. In closing I will make no bones that IMNSHO, these grips are the product of Waffenfabrik USA, or was contracted by them to be made overseas... Now give me a few minutes for the keyboard to cool off, and I will tell you how I really feel (within the limits of the Forum Decorum of course! :D ) |
John,
No offense intended, but there's some contradiction here. You express doubt about their Kenyon authentication, but then laud their honesty. I have dealt with Simpson and agree that they are honest and up front. However, in doubting there statement as to Kenyon. Isn't that a contradiction. If they are using hear say to sell it? There seems to be opposing thoughts there. as I said, no offense. Just an observation. Ron |
I remember the topic of Party Leader grips for a Luger came up years ago, possibly in Automag and possibly around the time Kenyon says he saw and tested them. I don't recall the discussion because I wasn't particularly interested in it. My first reaction is the same as most everyone else, they are at a minimum highly suspect. I don't believe they are CAD/CAM produced. The probable reason for canting the emblem is to make the wreath and swastika appear centered on the grip from side to side. This is accomplished on the left grip but the right grip is not as well centered. I would think that the molds for these grips were hand crafted by building up the eagle emblem on a set of grips, possibly using wax the way jewelry findings are created and "lost wax" cast, and then making a female mold for the final casting. Labor intensive by not something that couldn't be accomplished in a few days. This is in no way intended to validate these grips, just windbagging.
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Ron S, no offense taken... IMO Simpsons is just relaying what Kenyon is purported to have said... not necessarily first hand... but time will tell.
A quote from our mutual friend Dwight in a recent thread applies here as to why they or anyone else would sell a gun such as this under these circumstances.. "Because they are in the business of selling guns--sometimes, particularly, uncommon or rare ones. Caveat emptor is implied in any transaction involving a Luger--they are under no obligation to do your homework." Right-on Dwight! Ron W, ... a new hobby of mine is CNC machining and technique... much jewelry these days is CAD/CAM produced... using wax as the design medium shaped in a small precision milling machine and then the jewelry is created in the lost wax mold process... I think the detail in the emblem design is too rich to have been created manually... and the mold may have been created in this manner... IF I had been asked to create these grips, and even if it had been done manually as you suggest, I would still have taken the time to make sure I had produced at least two sets of grips... They would look good on a shooter, eh? :) (but not if there were an ORIGINAL Luger... only on reproductions made after say, 1936 or 37...) |
I don't dispute that much of todays production is CAD/CAM, but I guarantee you that a good die maker/jeweler can create a wax model that is every bit as detailed and precise as machine made. I have seen incredible detail in hand made wax. Also, I did not mean that the grips would have been made by lost wax casting. The wax model would have been used to make a female mold in a more permanent substance. Then it would be possible to crank out many sets (lets see if any more turn up).
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Ron
My wife owned and operated a candy business for 10 years. She made candy and -- also sold the molds. Because of a customer's request, she inquired (of the mold manufacturer) if a mold was available in a particular design which was a little popular at the time. She was told that it cost $90,000 to create the master mold (which would make the individual molds. So the company was not going to do it because, even though popluar, it was not popular enough to sell enough candy molds to make them money. She was told this around 18 years ago. I doubt if the process has become any cheaper. Perhaps hand made molds were used. Perhaps this was done in the early 40s, perhaps in the late 40s or even in the early 90s. It is possible, but is it probable ??? |
A very interesting discussion... this is the type of thread that stimulates me the most on this forum... educated speculation of the how and why things were done or not done 60 odd years ago...
I appreciate everyone's input... and look forward to more. |
Hi,
Making a mold for food substances is more expensive because of the physical requirements of the material. A simple casting mold can be made quite cheaply. I once watched a bunch of Cuban car mechanics knock up a new 'classic' car trunklid logo in minutes. Just a simple sand cast. (on tv, not in Cuba :D) |
Gentlemen,
A very interesting discussion in deed. I do not have much knowledge of Lugers in general or about grips in particular; however I do know that the Germans were pretty anal about symbols and signs. Keeping that in mind, I find it very unlikely that this slanted version of the NSDAP eagle could have been made during WW2, at least in Germany. Modifying a symbol like this would, to many German officials, appear as sacrilege. Regards, Balder |
Quote:
Candy molds are made of "thin" plastic. (Much like the plastic found in a 2 liter coke bottle.) |
Charles,
I wouldn't be at all surprised that it cost around $90K to make this kind of master mold. It is made in two parts, male and female, and is made of highly polished metal to very close tolerances to be able to stamp out the plastic molds at temperatures just below the melting point of the plastic. Pretty precision stuff and expensive. The type of mold I am suggesting is not as precise and would not hold up for mass production but could be used for a limited run before it became useless. |
I am surprised that there is so much discussion on a pair of grips which are totally WRONG. Under no condition would the German NSDAP government agency during WWII allow their national NSDAP eagle to be applied to a pair of (non-regulation) grips where the swastika was at the wrong angle and the eagle being slanted. These grips are probably 'post-war' or made by 'Waffenfabrik USA'.
An example of a correct NSDAP eagle can be observed on a genuine PPK Political Leader grip, and comparing a correct NSDAP eagle with the one shown on this Luger is like 'night and day'. It is a shame that Simpson decided to list such a pistol on his web site at a ridculous price hoping that some 'sucker' will fall over it and buy it. It demonstrates that his motive is only money without upholding his reputation which is on the decline as he continues to disappoint collectors. He is walking on a thin line by occassionally offering incorrect merchandise even if he makes no guarantees (on the grips). As the saying goes, "something is not right". If Simpson cannot distinguish between right and wrong items after 25+ years in the business, then he is playing risky business which could likely backfire on him if he continues along this path. It does not take much s*** to make a bad smell. My comments/remarks are not intended to harm Simpson Ltd, but what I say is based on fact, knowledge and reality. I notice that this forum can have a 'political umbrella' which will protect some people, but everyone has different opinions and knowledge (some more than others) which they should be able to express. Albert |
About time someone got the point.
I dont know why people dance around these pieces with chatter when there is a much greater issue, which is what we call "trolling for suckers". A dealer with this reputation would be out of his mind where I come from to try this crap. 8000.00 for a pair of grips? and throw Kenyons name?. I dont know Kenyon but I know his books so how much weight do I put in that?. I personally would not care if they were tested by grinding them and sprinking them on his cornflakes, that is fraud and gluttony whether the piece is cnsignment or not a totally inexcusable buisness practice and a sham. Absolutley no excuse for this from a top dealer, I buy lots of toys man, but not from sellers like this. |
It is absolutely FAKE, and you will never see something like that outside the US.
It is easy to make a mould (resin) with a pair of real black widow grips. After, you just have to engrave the mould. And the engraved part will be outside the surface of the grips... I did that for a shooter, from a black widow pair, to make soft "Pachmayr alike" grips, rubber with metal insert. So easy you can't imagine! But these people who are making these things are so idiot that they put the swastika with the wrong angle. It is a shame to propose a fake at this price... Beware if you see any marking on parts, tools, guns. 99% are fake. |
do you guys remember those fancy wood grips with swastika, headskull ++ on them?
I'm just guessing, perhaps the same guy, with access to some neat equipment is doing this for a business? This is probably not the last one to show up.. |
Albert, perhaps you did not read all of my large posting regarding the non-authenticity of these grips... and the circumstances surrounding the sale of this Luger...
I had already voiced my opinion about all the reasons why these grips could not be authentic... Simpsons is a business, and in the business of making money... What they sell and how they sell it determines their reputation in the marketplace... I think this item and it's sale price may have a detrimental effect on their overall business, at least from those people who are members of this forum... Regardless of where, or from whom you obtain something... the caution is always CAVEAT EMPTOR... Simpson's may sell this item to someone who is unknowledgeable about Lugers, but I think the net result to their business may far outweigh the profit they may make on this one Luger... The intellectual and philosophical discussion about this item and the circumstances surrounding it's offer for sale has educated many of those members who would never have known... I congradulate you for your consideration of this event and appreciate your input in this matter... the public discussion of such things is how we keep our fellow Luger enthusiasts educated to prevent them from being ripped off. |
These, then, gotta be the "real deal" as well...;)
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/arty_grips_2.jpg |
No shortcuts on those puppies. They were made by a master craftsman. I am guessing they are an overlay of sheet silver, pierced and formed to an ebony backing, and the ebony is actually incised so that the overlay is inset into the ebony. It may be the lighting that makes it look gold, or it may have been gold plated...I would be real surprised if it is solid gold, but who knows. Somebody shelled out some bucks for these grips.
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Those are snazzy Pete,do the emblems match the left one looks white? what are a set of grips like that worth? clint
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No expert here, but the one's Pete are showing I think belong to Goering's Luger.
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No, the grips on Goering's Luger (SN#16999) were white with inlays... not black.
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Okay, same style though right? Those grips look so familiar.
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One wonders.
Simpson has two FN Hi-Power holter shoulder stocks listed for sale: http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=2869 http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=1710 The are listed as "Pre-War" holster stocks. A glance reveals that the wood has pre-war configuration. But the holster is "Post War". Additionally, the holster is attached in the post war manner. So what we have is a pre-war stock to which someone attached a holster ----> after WWII. Hardly a pre-war item. |
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