Nickled luger?
 

Gentleman,

Nice forum you have here. Very intresting as well. I have what I know is a shooter Luger. I know this becouse its been refinished. You see it has a shiny NICKLE finish and Jay Scott Ivorex grips. this doen not strike me as quite origional. Too bad too as it is a 1941 dated nazi proofed gun with all matching numbers. Anybody have any idea how it got this way? It came with an origional holster as well but I sold that at a local gun show. It is the first and only nickled Luger I have ever seen. Any information is welcome.

Deaf Smith

Re: Nickled luger?
 

Sorry to hear about your Luger. Nickled Lugers are not all that uncommon, unfortunately. Generally the handiwork of some well meaning owner who thought the original finish needing touching up a bit. Too bad because it sounds like you would have had a nice piece there. Well, look on the bright side, you can take it to the range, and shoot it with great abandon, without fear of destroying a priceless collectible.


Dok

Re: Nickled luger?
 

I have one of them also (now re-blued). The story I heard was that at least two plating firms set up shop in the New York harbor area to nickle plate GI trophies for them. A lot of matched guns were given this nickle treatment.

Best regards.

Re: Nickled luger?
 

Deaf

When I was a young lad my father would be talking with men in his age group, usually in a bar and they all had take home "articles" from both theaters of WW II. Sometimes one of these former GIs's would show my father a handgun or bayonet that he just had a friend chrome at one of the many factories in southern CT. I recall everyone saying how nice the finish made the weapon look. To me in those days, these weapons looked great. Either chrome or nickle plating was the "style in the early '50s, just look at the bumpers on those cars from that eaa.

I was recently shown a P-38, marked 480, that was all matching, including the magazine. It had been chromed years ago and many of the proof marks, etc were partically filled in by this material. The owner believed this weapon was much more valuable because it was chromed. I couldn't bring myself to tell this old guy the truth about the damage to this gun's value.

THE HORROR, THE HORROR!!! (EOM)
 

Re: THE HORROR, THE HORROR!!!
 

DeafSmith, The good news is that the chrome finish can be taken off the same way it went on. By electroplate. Only reverse the process and that will bring back the pistol to bare metal without buffing anything off. Then you can have Ted Green put a very nice blue on it and have a nice weapon and somewhat original. I did it with a 1908 I found at the Houston Gun Show. Worked out great. Jerry

Re: THE HORROR, THE HORROR!!!
 

Can you give more information on removal of the nickle. I am in the same boat. Does the reverse hurt the gun underneath? In a previous thread in this wonderful forum, it was suggested that trying to restore the pistol is very expensive and may hurt the base metal underneath the nickle.


Check it out:


http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/dc8rayspimpgun.JPG


My Dad was a WW2 pilot (P47 in the 8th Air Force). When he passed on several years ago, I inhereated (sp) his small collection. A nickle Luger(plus one, not) and numerous firearms all nickled, such as a S&W 13, S&W 10, a couple of 1st gen SAA's, S&W 60 ss, 3 series 70's Colt 1911's, a nickle 3rd gen SAA, and a few more that I don't want to go into.


I guess a lot of the GI's, really seemed to like the nickle. I guess after dealing with the rust in Europe, the nickle seemed like a good idea.



http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/dc8rayspimpgun.JPG

Re: THE HORROR, THE HORROR!!!
 

You can expect to pickup some small pitting if all parts are stripped at the same time. This can be avoided at additional expense of course by sorting the components by hardness and stripping only those with like hardness together and keeping a close eye on them during the process.

Best regards.

Re: THE HORROR, THE HORROR!!!
 

I would then have a reblued luger worth about the same as the nickle one I have now if I read the info on this sight correctly. As the gun has already been refinished its nothing but a shooter. Removing the nickle would not change that would it? As it is it really don't look bad nickle, not origional but not bad. at least not bad enough to refinish until necessary. Who knows, then I can have it electroless nickled!

Deaf Smith

Profound philosophical question
 

If you have a new-condition unused gun which was nevertheless reblued (such as the Soviets did with a lot of P-38's and perhaps Lugers) and you carefully remove the reblueing leaving behind the original finish, do you now have an original condition pistol again? Presume for argument's sake that it does not have import marks or Soviet-added stampings on it.

Are you trying to stir it up???
 

It's bad enough when the topic of rework versus original surfaces, without adding a wrinkle like that. I suggest that this philosophiocal question is best left unasked and unanswered. A reworked Luger is a reworked Luger and therefore NOT original regardless of whether this is the first or second time the original finish has seen the light of day.


Let's leave it there.


Dok (Webmaster)

Re: Profound philosophical question
 

Sorry Doc, I will answer the technical part of the question without care about the philosophical part.

The reason why I answer the question is that I cannot see any reason for people to be suspisios or scared for a gun they intend to buy as this treatment is not possible.


The bluing is not a coating like the chromium or other kinds of platings is.

While a plating is building the surface up the bluing is not building up anything at all.

The bluind is a rust process and if one bluing is removed all bluing will be removed.

Thus it's not possible to remove the russian bluing to have a 100% original rustbluing underneath, as the only thing you would archive is to get a completely grey pistol without any bluing at all.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan





http://www.vapensmedjan.com

Re: Removing Dip Bluing
 

Haken, seems like Orv from the P38 has had GREAT luck with this method! Here it is from a 7/1/01 posting by Orv from the P38 forum www.p38forum.com ~Thor~

The guns from the former USSR are all dipped in a type of cold blue which does not stick to the surfaces that are already blued....so---------


I take 00000 (5 ought) steel wool and a little dish of clear oil. -- the gun is disassembled in front of me..I take each piece and dip a small piece of steel wool in the oil..then lightly scrub on the finish...I wipe it off quite often with a kleenex....[note the dark blue on the kleenex..]


wipe it dry and examine the piece closely from time to time..........you don't want to mar the finish..


I often wrap a bit of steel wool around Q-tip and use that in the corners...etc.


This has worked for me...


Orv Reichert


PS don't hesitate to contact me directly by email if you need more detailed info..

Re: Removing Dip Bluing
 

Ok Then I was obviusly wrong.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan





http://www.vapensmedjan.com

You Not wrong HÃ?Â¥kan just talking about different things...
 

If the process was a hot salt dip blueing I agree with you... it's removal would also remove any original bluing beneath it.


Cold blue, as Ted is talking about is really just a chemical color on top of the metal and certain solvents will remove it, (often without the permission of the owner!)but not remove the salt rust finish underneath.


If anyone here has ever had the plating removed from a pistol, I would love to see before during and after photos of the process... especially if the pistol underneath retained its original finish after de-plating.


In the past I have passed on several otherwise good buys because they were plated...


regards,


-John

Re: You Not wrong HÃ?Â¥kan just talking about different things...
 

I am not talking about cold bluing, I am talking about a full dip bluing of the firearm. Several folks on the P38 forum have had good success with this. Are you saying John that the full dip bluing was cold bluing? Sorry Hakan, looks like I misspelled you name last night and I cannot make my computer make the little o symbol with all the codes people mention, I simply cant make it work! ~Thor~

Re: You Not wrong HÃ?Â¥kan just talking about different things...
 

I have always been told that the russian guns was boiled in oil but as i never have seen any of those guns i don't know.


AS far as I know about dip blue there is some proceses that contians discolored cupper and this can of course be removed.


I don't belive that it will be possible to nickelplate a gun above it's orignal blue as the parts have to be totally cleaned before plating.


I have had a lot of plated guns striped from the plating but they are always greish underneath of the plating.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

Ted, What I am suggesting is that perhaps the Russians...
 

were only interested in a cosmetic improvement in order to get a better price for the old guns. I do not have knowledge of what process that they used, but if it really was a rusting process, then any method that would remove the "new" bluing should also remove the old bluing with prejudice... agents that will remove bluing usually don't discriminate betweem the two finishes.


I have read the posts on the P38 forum but fail to see how any blue finish could be left if the new blue was removed unless it is really dark parkerizing instead of blue.


In any event, if the finish has been tampered with, you cannot remove all traces of it, and FWIW I am of the opinion that condition of these "unblued" pieces should not be considered the same as "original" -


my $0.05's worth...


-John

Ted, re-read Orv's quote in your own post - It IS cold blue!
 

"The guns from the former USSR are all dipped in a type of cold blue"

Re: Ted, re-read Orv's quote in your own post - It IS cold blue!
 

Cool., my apologies to Hakan, seems like I made de BOOBOO!

Thanks John! It is nice to know we can take it off! I know some guys will also do this with guns they bought from gun shows, get a 99% gun home and find some cold bluing on the wear places, sideplate, barrel muzzle side, etc and end up with a 93% gun with only the original finish remaining!

Again, sorry for my mistake! Thor

Re: You are right!
 

Hakan...You are right .. When I had my 1908 stripped of it's chrome plate it was bare metal underneath and correctly, you would have to buff or bead blast this to achieve a surface proper for blueing. There are many types of blueing and for instance Mr Colt did a form in a furnace fed with bones that created intense smoke and no oxygen thus pulling carbon out of the metal. The result is a beautiful blue not matched to this day in commercial production. Ted does a rust blue and maybe he can explain how that works, Pulls carbon out or what? Jerry

Colt process
 

The older Colt charcoal fire-blue (using bone, charcoal, leather, and other organic combustibles) doesn't acutally pull carbon out of the steel but creates a high carbon atmosphere. The gun parts were heated to a cherry red glow and often the bone and charcoal were packed around them and wrapped in rawhide. This was then put in an airtight container to create what is known as a reduction atmosphere. The hot steel, upon igniting the materials, absorbed the carbon that was given off (since it is starved for oxygen it takes in the carbon rich atmosphere). This produced brilliant purples and reds and blues on the frames. The whole process was a guarded secret but now is fairly well known. No two specimens turned out the same, which adds to the beauty of the process. Rust bluing, on the other hand, is a chemical process applied to the surface of the steel which has an acid base and creates a black oxide finish on the 'rusted' surfaces. Rust bluing is extremely labor intensive.

Re: You are right!
 

You can do a pretty nice rust blue without much metal removal, I have done one example three times (I was not happy with the first two result)and the proof marks were still intact the after the third result. See General Information/FAQ/ and the rust blue section. ~Thor~

Re:Colt Method
 

Bill,

Colt's process of oven blueing did not draw carbon from the metal, but rather the animal bone and pure petroleum oil produced the carbon that colored the metal in the heat of the oven. When Colt went to the gas fired ovens, the pistol parts were on revolving racks which turned one direction for half the process time, and then reversed for the same amount of time in order that the pistol parts would blue evenly in the vapor.

Re:Colt Method
 

Hi Johnny, if you re-read my post I am sure you will agree that we are barking up the same tree. The color case hardening is a process that allows the steel to draw carbon from a reduction atmoshpere (actually the opposite of rust bluing, which employs an oxidation process to form a coating on the steel).