Navy Rear Sights...
 

This guy has 2 Navy rear sights and even some "new" Navy barrels on auction on e-Bay :

http://cgi.ebay.com/Naval-Rear-Sight...QQcmdZViewItem

Watch out for another wave of "mint" Navy Lugers. :-(

Note that he offers professional courtesy of hiding the buyer's identity.

I wonder if he offers a choice of serial numbers?

The term 'force match': if I get the term correctly, does it apply to matching 2-digit #s from different guns' parts, changing the stamped numbers, or both?
I recently read a post from a new user who asked if he could get a matching part for his Luger.

Russell

Ron:

Let's contact him an see. The sight does seem to have a number on it, though that doesn't really mean a thing.

Sieger

Russel,

Matching a 2-digit part from another gun is force-matching.

Changing the stamped number is boosting.

--Dwight

Thanks Dwight.

Russell

Russell, this is an issue I think many folks have problems with and temptation. They have an all matching gun and the sideplate or firing pin is mismatched...

Is it wrong to "match" it up?

Would I do it?

Should you?

Only your conscious can decide what is right and what is wrong...

Ed

Ed,

No doubt in my mind about that. Fortunately both my Lugers are matching but the mags. I have thought about replacing the missing sear safety on my 1920 Commercial-Police.
:cool:
Dwight, Ron, Pete, et al,

Nevertheless, assembling a parts-Navy for fun, not profit, is intriguing.
Are there serious issues about fitting the parts. I can't imagine the barrel would be easy to remove/replace. Probably a job for KrausewerK.
I see the bid is holding at $100.00 for the rear toggle. Is it worth much more than that?
:D
Russell

I bet it goes up about $125 more, maybe more.

I have a 6 inch reblue sitting next to teh bed, have not shot it yet, want to go shooting with me? I am almost next door, in New Hampshire :D



Ed

I'd be proud to, Ed.
See you at the range tomorrow. :thumbup:

To all you great Americans on LugerForum,
Have a glorious Independence Day. :cheers:

To all you others around the world,
Wish you were here.....legally.;)

God bless the brave men and women defending our freedom.

Russell

Dwight, Ron, Pete, et al,

Nevertheless, assembling a parts-Navy for fun, not profit, is intriguing.
Are there serious issues about fitting the parts. I can't imagine the barrel would be easy to remove/replace. Probably a job for KrausewerK.
I see the bid is holding at $100.00 for the rear toggle. Is it worth much more than that?

Russell,

There's nothing wrong with assembling a Navy Luger, as long as it's not done to purposely "boost or deceive". In other words, to fake it to the detail that it could be used to defraud someone.

Here are some photos of a very rare Navy Luger that I have in my collection. Probably the only one in existance. All matching numbers including the magazine.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/111_1124.jpg


http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/111_1125.jpg

Made with a "fine tune" front sight. "Extremely rare".

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/111_1128.jpg

Probably the rarest of all Navys. Made in 1937 by Mauser. That is with the help of an expert pistolsmith.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/111_1134.jpg


A 1937/S42 Mauser with an original Navy rear sight , a turned down and shortened Artillery barrel. All serial numbers were force matched or boosted ,if you prefer.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/111_1127.jpg

I have always wanted a Navy Luger, but couldn't justify spending the money or going through the headache of avoiding a "Fake". And certainly would not consider shooting a $3500+ collector piece.

So, I bought this one from Richie Shavel aka "the gunman" for less than half of what a low-end original would have cost. And I can and do shoot it on a regular basis. It is extremely accurate out to 200+ yards. I have never regretted buying it from Richie. And probably would be one out of my collection that I would not sell, should the need arise. If I could own only one Luger, this would be the one.

Ron

Ron,

Just one fantastic pistol you have there! That's just about everything I could ever want from one Luger too! I've all the respect in the world for knowledgeable collectors of purely original Lugers. (Hey, someone has to do it.) But I'd rather have one good Luger to shoot as much as I would like, than two that I'd be a disrespectful fool to fire them.

I'm new to the finer points of Lugers, but I'm already getting the definite impression that no other firearm in the history of the world has had more fakers, forgers, frauds, and phonies involved with them. It's probably the same way with Stradivarius violins or anything else of great quality that is no longer made.

A happy 4th of July to all concerned (put down the brew before picking up a match)!

HerbZ

P.S. I like your idea of using a coarse neutral colored cloth like burlap for a background in your photographs.

Ron,

What a supurb piece of workmanship! I especially like the fine tune front sight which my Arty lacks. Thanks for sharing it here.
Just one question, though. Can you legally attach a repro Navy stock?

Russell

Heb Z,

I use a piece of raw silk for my photo backgrounds for four reasons :

1. Folks always know the gun or holster is mine because it is on my signature piece of fabric I have used for 4 years now on the forum.

2. It eliminates the possibility of any glare from a hard back ground surface making its way into the photo.

3. Mine is a natural light brown color, as well; as I think it is a tasteful background to the colors on a luger.

4. I can color-correct the photo with eidting software so I get the color of the fabric just right. When I do this, the color of the luger is as close to reality as possible.

Herb,

Thanks! I like the burlap background. I think that it adds a bit of the old mystique to the pistols. Kind of the "Old World" Trap steamer, African Queen flavor.

Russell,

I won't say for certain, but I don't think anyone would know the specific legalities if they ever caught me with a repro stock attached. It is accurate....;)

If it came down to it? I suppose there are some anal "enforcement" types who would send me to the slam for such a blatant and dastardly violation of firearms laws.

But, "They'll never take me alive I tell ya!! TOP O THE WORLD MA....!!!"

Ron:evilgrin:

My interpretation of adding a repro stock to a made up navy or artillery is that it would be illegal in the USA. There is a recent thread on that in this section.

Past navy rear toggles have gone for $400.

Time to repost the difference between the counterfeit navy rear sight and the original navy rear sight. I'll have to dig to find that one. I think I have it somewhere in my computer files.
Big Norm :rolleyes:

Hey Norm, I don't have the time at the moment but I think I put together a real versus repro Navy rear toggle photo essay in the Members Gallery... If anyone has the time, could you check that out and let me know here...

If it is not in the gallery, then I will have to dig up those photos out of my archive and see If I can put one together...

John's Member Gallery presentation is still there, but in the meantime here is a quick comparison shot.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ht_compare.jpg

These two do look legit, although maybe reblued.

One is up to over $ 700 and the auction will close in a few hours, the other one is around $ 400 with some bidding time left.

What really bothers me about these Navy rear sight auctions is where will they end up? I try to make note of the two digits on the rear and file them into memory. If one were to "manufacture" a 1917 Navy, the rear sight would seem to me to be the hardest to make in the Waffenfabrik USA shop. I wonder if the members realize how many machining processes are required to make this part? The six inch barrel is easy to acquire and stamping and/or pantographing is a very doable task. I guess all attention is now being drawn to making wide flanged rear toggle pins. That would be more difficult than machining the seat for the wide flange on the rear of the receiver. It may be a good idea for folks like Dwight Gruber or Ron Wood to compile a serial number database of authentic war time Navies just to see if a duplicate serialed piece turns up.

Doc,

I suspect the Navy Cabal guys (i.e. Tom, Leo, and Derek) might be hesitate to publish their Navy serial number database in today's current boosting environment.

If I were a booster and got a hold of such a comprehensive list, I would not chose to pick a number of an existing, reported piece...but rather I would chose a number in the "gap" of numbers not yet recorded.

Ron
Outstanding display of the differences. The only problem is that, during the emotion packed time of deciding to put down big bucks for a navy Luger, many of your well pointed out differences between the real and the counterfeited rear toggle sight could easily be missed. Only the checkering of the pull back knob could be relatively easily noticed. Everything else would require a side by side, close comparision with a known 'real' rear toggle.
Big Norm

Pete, your logic is truly of an engineering mind and cannot be questioned! Your point is VERY well taken!

Hey Norm,

If you would break down and buy a new color inkjet printer like I have been encouraging you to do for years, you could actually print out photos like Ron's excellent comparison and keep it with you at shows... when you find a Navy... For less than the cost of a non-Navy Luger shooter, you could even get yourself a small laptop with a broadband network card and carry your internet access and the whole Lugerforum photo archives with you at shows...

Get one of your many girlfriends to buy it for you :D

Hey John! My so called many girl friends are too busy spending my money on themselves or trying to get me to do it for them. (Hee! Hee!). I do have a color printer/scanner. A new HP 1600. Some day I am going to figure out how the thingy works. The dog gone thing is pretty tricky.

Someone asked what someone might do with the navy rear toggle. Well I just got back from the Ohio Gun Collectors Assoc. (OGCA) show in Wilmington, Ohio. Doug Smith and a bunch of us were laughing at a made up Luger that had a 16 inch or so long barrel with a counterfeit navy rear toggle on it. Funny looking thing. But thanks to Ron Woods excellent pictures with explainations, I was able to take my time and look at the counterfeit rear toggle that was on the gun. A blind man could just feel the difference on that toggle knob and see that it was fake. The top of that knob is noticably flatter than you would find on a 'real' navy rear toggle. But if someone wants to make up a gun that they are going to have some fun shooting and you have the bucko's to buy a navy rear toggle, this is what you can do.

Just a little off topic, I missed out on getting a 1902 Luger carbine at the OGCA show and felt bad about it until I picked up a very nice Sattler Lief.Verb.Im Subm.Amt - 1918 Leipzig artillery holster. To top it off, after talking to the guy, the seller said that he might have the cup and straps at home. We made arrangements to meet some time in the near future. Sorry for this off topic mention, but sometimes a guy has to brag when he has the chance. I quickly forgot about the 1902 carbine. It really pays to be a real good looking guy with a great personality. Doug Smith really ate his heart out when he saw the holster. (Hee! Hee!). He probably would have tried to sell it to me for $10,000. (Just kidding, but not by much)
Big Norm:D

Drbuster: Here in the Machinist's Heaven of the Automotive Capital making a wide flanged Navy rear axle or machining the receiver's rear stepped axle seat larger to accept a wider flange is only a matter of a few minutes with the right machinery - machinery so easily accessible in my neck of the woods. It is inexpensive and extremely easy to do. Not as difficult as it may appear to be.

I guess one who is comtemplating the purchase of a 1914 model Navy needs to get it from a knowledgable seller,needs to have seen many of these things, and to have some luck as well. A good fake with all the right things done, I guess, could not be definitely distinguished from the real thing.

Hi all,

I am sure you all know that repo Navy sights are available from Sarco for around $225. They are also selling the Navy barrels in both standard Navy (high front sight base) and P08 style (low front sight base), I can't recall the price off the top of my head, but reasonable. I started seeing these in the Shotgun News about 3 or 4 months ago and started seeing more "Navy" sights on e-bay in the last 2-3 months. Some of the fakes have gone for much more than the Sarco price. Very good return on investment for the un-scrupulous. I would look vary hard at any e-bay Navy sights; I know legit sights do come up for sale but as you already know a lot of repos become original when they get to e-bay.

Bob M.

Some subtle and not so subtle differences in this area on the original that the repro does not show :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...comparison.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...pare_copy1.jpg