Restoration worth the price?
 

Hello again everyone,

Can you till me if this is likely to be worth $1500?

A 'partial restoration' of a DMW 1917 LP-08, fresh rust-blue, good bore, good sight with all the teeth, all matching except grips and the contemporary magazine (wood bottom), no stock, no holster.

I really like this piece; it looks and feels good.

I appreciate any input.

Thank you,

Russell

No pictures, no opinion. Is it likely to be worth $1500...probably not, but how in the world could we tell?

Probably not that much. But if it sings to you, why not? You can always make more money! Only you know what it's worth to you.

Russell, Just to give your an idea what a nicely finished ersatz LPO8 would cost to buildup today, using Sarco's repro barrel & rear sight assy @$225 each, plus barrel installation with head spacing and chamber ream @$100. You would probably also need an orig LPO8 rear toggle link & spring for the rear sight @$50+. Finallly, either a dip blue @$100 or so, or a Thor rust blue @$500 or so. When you add in a shooter luger to use @$500+, you can see that minimum, you're looking at about $1200 with no profit added. TH

Thanks for all the input.

Pictures would be nice if the dealer lets me photgraph it.

The 'probably not' is what I expected. When I find one with the original blue, straw, and grips I'll try to get pics. I'll also need about three or four

I have yet to hear the Arty's song. I've been told it will crack like a rifle as it makes full use of the powder charge....?

The breakdown of likely costs is extremely helpful.

Thank you again my friends,

Russell

Russell, Jack Hiles and I have shot Artillery's and Navy stocked Lugers extensively in the AZ desert lately. They easily are accurate to 300 yards if you are any kind of shot. I say accurate if you would not want to be on the recieving end behind a rock. You could get got! They are an amazing and fun weapon to play with, I highly recommend you find one if you are a shooter. Pretty amazing for the small 9MM round. Jerry Burney

Jerry,

Sounds like a great place to retire!
See you out there in a few years.

Russell

I must say my Arty is definitely my favorite firearm in my arsenal. Like Jerry says, it is easily accurate to beyond 300 yards and puts a smile on your face with each hit. I take some criticism for firing a beautiful, numbers 1917 Artillery, but I would never let it sit in my safe when Jerry and I go out to shoot his favorite close target of golf balls nor our favorite looong target of the wild Arizona desert rock. I gotta say those golf balls are pesky little critters to hit but Mr Burney makes it look like child's play.

Jerry, how was the trip nack to high Colorado summer country? BTW you need to change your adress on your posts.

Russell, I escaped from the Bay Area 3 years ago and never look back!

Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ

Jack, Went well....Drove 800 miles day one, 300 day two. Couldn't find a motel that would take Magic or Belle!
Unloading and trying to get to work on the holster backlog.
Cold and winter here at 8000 feet, got a fire in the stove!

Russell, AZ is getting so expensive I wonder if many will be able to afford housing...Good luck!
Jerry Burney

Thank you Ron, Tac, Tom, David, Jerry, and Jack.

Your input helped me decide to go for it. The cool part is that I figure I got it at a discount of better than 8% as Mike Krause paid the sales tax. This is not his restoration work (that was done some time ago) but he did provide the new grips. It is matching except the grips and magazine. Haven't fired it yet; might get a chance next week.
I plan to get a repro stock next and then a holster. Understanding that this is not a stock-rigged type, what do you think of this one on e-bay?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...EWA%3APIC&rd=1
Might have to send it off to Jerry before I could use it.

Anyhow, if this Arty sings the way I expect it to, I have dicided it will be worth the price. If not, just the tuition for a lesson at Luger U.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...0g_1917058.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...0g_1917064.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...0g_1917054.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...0g_1917049.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...g_1917062a.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...g_1917064a.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...g_1917050a.jpg
III.221.112.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...g_1917065a.jpg
Crown BNP on barrel and receiver
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...g_1917070a.jpg

Here are my two Lugers and the non-matching magazines they came with:
1917 LP08 DWM and 1920 P08 DWM commercial/police
Would either likely be correct for either pistol? (aluminum vs wood bottom)
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...8__mags019.jpg

Russell

Nice gun. You could have spent $1500 a lot less wisely. I retract my "probably not". You did well.

You can almost always get more money. But how often do you get to hold a piece of history in your hand , and get to shoot it as well ?
I think you did alright!

Russell,

For $ 1500...I think you did very well.

At my local gun shop in Walnut Creek, CA, you would pay over $ 1200 for a junky, doggy, mis-matched Arty shooter...usually with a broken TD lever spring to boot.

May I ask :

1. How is your bore condition ?

2. Could you post a photo of the bottom of the wooden magazine. It appears your magazine may be a Swiss Bern wooden luger...just would like to see the bottom to confirm this.

Congratulations on a great looking piece !

p.s. Regarding the e-Bay holster link. That same seller, LF member Randy Bessler, also has this very nice repro holster FS on his web site. You might look at this one as you could eventually get it set up with a woodend stock and straps, etc.

http://www.collectorfirearms.org/Lug...ems/LI-264.htm

Thank you Ron, David, and Pete,

Three thumbs up makes me feel really goodâ?¦.as does holding this bit of history.

:cheers:

Now the questions begin. Some must seem quite basic but here goes.

How is barrel length measured? For the LP08 I get about 7 1/8 in. from the muzzle to the front of the receiver; about 7 7/8 in. to the breech. For the P08 I get just about 4 inches shorter. I would guess that official measurements are metric. When someone says he has a 7-inch Navy, a 6-inch American Eagle, or a 4-inch barrel; what is likely to be the true length?

There is no number on the rear toggle pin nor on the firing pin retainer. Should there be?

I would suppose that the ramp sight is graduated in hundreds of meters. If I find a way to hold it steady enough to accurately zero the sight is it advisable to invest in the adjusting tool and attempt it? Is there a standard range at which to zero?

Can anyone tell about the unit mark 'III.221.112.'?

If I can get clear pictures of the tiny markings on the barrel and receiver I will post, along with mag markings, which look similar in placement and character to the aluminum I have. From the Tech section I gather this Luger has standard DWM proofs 1914-1918 and British import/capture proofs as well.

Once again this forum and all of you are my primary resource for knowledge, information, guidance, and inspiration as I indulge my new passion.

Many thanks,

Russell

Russell,
* The barrel measurement is from the front of the breech face w/out the firing pin extended to the crown of the barrel. A pencil inserted eraser end first into an uncocked, unloaded P.08's barrel, scribed/marked @ the crown, retracted & measured is a good method of assessing the barrel's length. Of course, its going to take a "loooong pencil" to do an Arty. Your 7 & 7/8ths" = 7.875" is awfully close.

* P.08 = 100mm = 3.937". Called a 4" Bbl.
* LP.06 Navy = 150mm = 5.906". Called a 6" Bbl.
* LP.08 Arty = 200mm = 7.874". Called an 8" Bbl.

* The toggle pin was not S/numbered in the Imperial era. Wasn't till '33 that this pin began to be numbered. The F/Pin retainer was not S/numbered.

* Trust this helps.
Respectfully,
Bob

Russell,

Now just go out and have fun with it. I did the same thing as you. I bought my first Luger to get started and never dreamed I would own an Artillery. I kept my nose to the grindstone and it seemes like it took me no time to 1) get the Arty, 2)find a stock, and 3) find a holster.

Then, with the help of some beautiful pieces made by Jerry Burney, I have a nice rig I am proud to own and shoot. You'll have the same in no time.

Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ/Ex SF Bay

Russell,

You might find the nice wooden grips a bit too delicate and they could become easily damaged at the range.

You might want to find a pair of the nice VOPO plastic grips and use them when you go out shooting. They are seeminly indestructible.

They pop up on e-Bay for $ 30 or so and I think our Luger Doc still sells them as well.

The Mike Krause shop might have some, as well.

Here is what they look like :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/vopogrips.jpg

Thanks friends,

As I try to refine my photographic skill with a modest camera I got a few pics to show the magazine and proofs. I uploaded them but left the links on the office computer instead of my thumb drive. I'll get them posted early tomorrow. For now let me reference the 'Technical Information' section under 'Markings', 'Proof Marks', 'Proof 2' #15 for DWM 1914-1918 manufacture, and 'Proof 6' #60 as my source for the British markings. All are present on the underside of the barrel and I'm still trying to photograph that part. I have to figure out the lighting.

Tac, I would like nothing better than to think that this fine weapon was liberated from a German artillery officer by a British soldier.

Pete, the bore is very good. It must not have been fired in a long time. I took the gun down to clean out some old gum from the firing pin, ways, and toggle joints and oiled it up. Grip replacement sounds like a good idea. It looks like we are neighbors here in the East Bay.

Bob, your info is quite helpful. Thank you very much.

Jack, I plan to do pretty much what you say. What a great hobby this is! I can't wait to shoot it now, but I will because I live in town.

Russell

I thoroughly examined this piece at Mike Krause's shop before Russell made his purchase. It is a very attractive luger and very well done. The unit markings on the front grip strap are not to be found in Jeff Noll's book and are probably Weimar. The British proofs are interesting. A very nice addition to a beginning collection and at a good price.

Hi Russell,

I am over in the Easy Bay...I used to get over to the Krause shop and hang out with member Doc Fisher and chat lugers with Mike Krause...but work has keep me away of late.

You might also try to make the Reno gun show this August. Always a bunch of lugers (authentic and many not) but it is a show that one can learn a lot about lugers and several LF members always attend.

Sometimes a dinner event with fellow luger nuts gets organized.

Here is the gun show link :

http://www.bigrenoshow.com/

As far as shooting goes, is the Jackson Arms indoor range off the Hwy. 101 near Grande Ave. in So. SF still in business ? I had shot there 4-5 times and it is a decent indoor range.

Hi Herb,

I'm still playing e-bay for a copy of 'Lugers at Random' as per your sugestion. There is one first edition up now. I tried several already. Not fast enough I guess.
Of course it was your good word that helped me finally decide to buy this Arty. Thanks again for your input.

Pete,

Maybe we should all get together some time. Everywhere I look on this and Jan's forum I find your expertise helping everyone. Do you ever sleep?
By the way, your Swiss revolver collection looks ausome! Is ther anywhere you have posted your Swiss Luger collection all together?
I will check on the status of Jackson Arms.

And what about the demise of Traders in San Leandro? What a mess!

Russell

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...g_1917088a.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...g_1917091a.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...g_1917074a.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...g_1917109a.jpg

It really does have the same markings as Proof 6 #60.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...110a_copy1.jpg

Parabellus,
serial number 330? 330? That sounds familar. Look at the navies section of this forum. FGS has a navy stock with maybe that number. Ya, its a nice navy stock. But look anyway. Look under "stock".

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976726584.htm

Big Norm :cheers:

Traders seem to think that He did not have to be "perfect". When you have a US senator after your a** you better be perfect. He was warned a lot. Maybe in another state it would not of happened but not here. So stay legal.

Jerry

Hi Russell,

I have not put all lugers together for one photo. One does not attempt to do such a thing with wife and family around (as they will then know what you have really been up to)...;)

p.s. Your wooden magazine looks to be an Erfurt magazine, an early one with the two crown/gothic letter proofs. From your earlier photos, it appears your wooden magazine has two (2) retaining pins int he bottom of the tube through the wood; originally it would have had only one (1). These magazines are quite desirable for Erfurt collectors.

It is, ovbsiously, not a Swiss Bern mag I had previously suspected.

Hi Norm,

Would putting a Navy stock on an Artillery be "kosher" per the BATF ?

Pete,
Good question. Under BATF rules, 1900's, 1906's (Ideal stocks), carbines, artilleries and navies can legally have stocks on them. They don't specify that an artillery must have an artillery stock or that a navy must have a navy stock. They don't even specify that the stock must be original, repro or even have matching serial numbers. This stock is original (albeit a navy stock) and is serial numbered to the gun. So my guess is that its OK.

Now, as a collector, is it "kosher" to have a navy stock on an artillery? That is a question that only the buyer can decide. Especially at that price. I didn't see if Parabellus had a small cap after the serial number on his frame. I'll check that out later. If so, then this stock would not be, technically, a match to a collector. But thats collector talk.

When Doug bought this stock, he said that he felt that it belonged on a "real" 1904 Navy Luger. I am still crying in my beer that he laughed at my offer to purchase it from him. Don't ever get Doug laughing. He remembered what I previously paid to him for another navy stock a while back. Bad negotiating on my part. Ken and Joe were surprised though, that Doug didn't take my offer. But I had my head focused on a certain 1902 carbine at the OGCA at the time and I didn't have the money to buy both. As it turned out, I didn't get either. Zeus must have been mad at me for some reason. Maybe better luck next time.

Parabellus, let me know how this all turns out. I don't plan on buying this stock, but I do have a personal interest here. See, as I have often said, bragging is good. It may pay off for you in this instance. :cheers:
Big Norm

.Yes, they do! It even says that it is to be an "original" artillery stock for an artillery, and an "original" navy stock for a navy. (EMPHASIS AND SIZE Changed by ADMIN) I understand that authentic reproduction stocks of each type have been approved. Also, Ideal stock/holster rigs may only be attached legally to American Eagle Lugers (1900, 1902, and 1906).

So, getting back to the original question, it would NOT be kosher to attach a Navy stock to an Artillery

Sorry Norm, but Ron is absolutely correct on the use of the stocks. They can ONLY be used on the exact same type of gun that they were designed for according to ATF... EXACT reproductions of original stocks have been subsequently approved on the same models. Any Navy stock attached to an Artillery Luger or the reverse combination (IN THE USA) would be a technical violation of the National Firearms Act of 1934... that would be bad mojo for a law abiding gun owner... :confused:

http://www.lugerforum.com/BATF2.html

http://www.lugerforum.com/BATF.html

Yes, gentlemen, I have seen this stock before. If I could afford it it would be perfect for my NEXT Luger (which I can't afford either). A Navy is my price range? Now who's laughing? I go to GA often to get an idea of prices. I thank Norm for the tip.
A six-inch American Eagle will probably be my best chance at an intermediate-length Luger. That will have to wait.
Now the focus is to make sure this Arty fires properly. A repro stock within my buget is available for Krausewerk and I should have it in a couple of weeks.

Russell

Thank you Ron and John for clarity and for driving home the point.
It seems that BATF has conceded on some crucial points as far as faithful reproductions of authentic stocks for specific weapons are concerned. I see no reason to push the envelope on this one.
But that sure is ia beautiful piece of woodwork.

By the way, my Arty's sn is 330g. Did numbers get reused on different lines like Artillery, Navy, Army, Commercial, etc?

Russell

The answer to your question is yes, and no. For military Lugers the answer is yes as the numbers would repeat at the beginning of each production year and for DWM the range extended to â??gâ?� for:
1915 P.08
1916 P.08
1917 P.08
1917 LP.08
1918 P.08
So you could find #330g in each of those year/model guns. Navy suffix letters did not go that high.

On the â??noâ?� side, Commercial Lugers did not have a letter suffix to the serial number until the 1920 Commercials, and they will be found with suffix letters primarily from â??iâ?� through â??uâ?�.

Thank you Ron and John. This is some pretty interesting reading. I'll have to make copies of these rulings for my note book.

Something that I found interesting is the part about Ideal grips and stock/holster. I didn't know that they can only be on American Eagles of 1900, 1902 and 1906 vintages. I thought that they could be on those vinages even though they were not American Eagles. If I read the rules right, you cannot even replace the leather, if the old leather is all worn out and torn. The wood grips and the metal backing must also be original.
Big Norm

I don't believe that is a correct interpretation. There isn't anything that precludes restoration. As long as the stock/holster/grips conform to the authentic original configuration, they are legal. Look at the last paragraph of the second reference that John posted: " Therefore, any Luger or Browning Hi-Power pistol which would be removed from the purview of the NFA if equipped with an original shoulder stock, would also not be subject to the NFA is equipped with a reproduction shoulder stock which either duplicates or closely approximates the dimensions and configuration of the original stock."
However, there is no equivocation on the requirement that the Ideal sholderstock/holster may only be attached to an American Eagle Luger.

Russell,
OK, now that I straightened this all out, I recommend that you don't buy that navy stock. You can also forget about the ice cold, six pack of Samual Adams beer that you would have owed me.
Big Norm

That's OK Norm. I'd be proud to tip a Sam Adams with you any time. We'll toast the BATF.

Russell

Pete,

Looks like Jackson Arms is in transition, moving to:

152 Utah
South San Francisco

They hope to re-open there on July 4, 2006 perhaps with a new name.

Russell

British Proof
 

Tac, old friend!

By Georg I think I've got it!

This is the best shot my feeble camera with my miserable photographic skill has been able to capture. Check this out against Proof 6 #60 and tell us again the English did not mark (with some panache) their spoils of war (or imported weapons).

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...110a_copy3.jpg

You be the judge.

Respectfully yours,

Russell

The question is not whether the British proof marked weapons, the disparity lies in the use of â??captureâ?� and â??spoils of warâ?�. Just like the common use of â??capture papersâ?� is a misnomer. The paper no more indicates that the weapon was â??capturedâ?� by the individual possessing it than the markings on a British proofed weapon indicates it was â??capturedâ?�. The â??capture papersâ?� are merely authorization to possess and transport a weapon by a soldier. It may have been captured, won in a poker game or swapped for a carton of cigarettes. Likewise as I understand it, the laws of Britain require that all guns not made in England and brought into country, military or commercial, be proofed to British standards, therefore there is no connotation of â??captureâ?� involved.

Tacâ??s statement that â??we never 'capture marked' anything we took off the enemyâ?� is accurate in light of the above. The assertion that â??Nor do we put import marks on any weapon like you do in the USA to show the importer's name/companyâ?� may be splitting hairs a wee bit, since the proofing requirement and â??Not English Makeâ?� are de facto import marks.

I apologize for the expression I used 'spoils of war'. I was feeling a bit cantankerous at the moment. I fully well realize that the purpose of free nations going to war is not to pillage conquered lands but to free oppressed people and protect our territorial integrity.
The point Ron makes about â??capturedâ?? weapons is well taken.
Now I think I understand Tacâ??s point. My guess is that he (or many other Forum members) know what the markings mean such as â??15 TONS PER (square) â??â?? and the â??Xâ?? (internal pressure?) expression. Are these actual test proofs? What about Crown BNP?

Thank you again,

Russell

Yes, these are actual test proofs. Of course the 15 TONS PER ��" is just a shorthand notation for a pressure of fifteen tons per square inch. I believe the "X" expression is a notation for burst pressure for overloads. And lastly, the Crown/BNP is for British Nitro Proof which indicates that the weapon has been tested in accordance with the 1954 proof law.