Carbine Hunt
 

All,

The thought came to me today (Only thought I have had lately that did not die of lonliness) that it might be kinda cool to organize a hunting expedition where the only weapon used would be Luger carbines.

.

Any interest?

Tom A.

Tom,

The small group of luger carbine owners willing to shoot their carbines might be an even smaller group.

How about opening the invite up to additional folks with stocked Navy and stocked Artillery lugers as well ???

Do state laws apply at this place? PA doesn't permit hunting anything with a semi-auto, and an energy requirement may apply for bigger animals. NY probably doesn't permit pistols.

You are lucky. Here, the state laws apply on private lands also.

But there are a few areas in the state where the game warden will not leave the road to talk with the hunter - which means that, in those locations, about anything goes.

I shoot my Artillery's and Navy 9MM stocked pistols out to 200 yards with good accuracy and they hit hard. I also shoot my stocked .30 Luger with similar results. I think accuracy is key to a clean kill. The 9MM was good enough for the Germans on 170 LB men, should work on a good sized animal if shot placement is correct.
The first and only deer I ever took was with a .30 Carbine, a one shot kill.
I must agree with Tac on one point, You owe the animal respect and an instant and clean despatch. Ideal as this is, it is not always possible even under the best of circumstances. Something to think about and strive for however.
Personally, after my War years I have no desire to see anything killed. Animals in particular. I do not object to hunting, I know it is necessary to harvest but I don't want to participate. Of course, I would do so were circumstances such that it were necessary.
I do love shooting...Golf balls are my favorite prey.
Jerry Burney

Best use of Golf Balls I have ever heard of Jerry... never found much sense in the game... kinda like long range artillery shooting without the benefit of sights... :D


... and TAC, I don't think anyone has mentioned using FMJ ammo for the hunt... I personally don't kill anything that I am not going to eat except bugs and varmints... (the four or more legged variety)...

I would prefer not to get into 2-legged varmint shooting unless they pose a serious social threat encounter... terrorists would be open season at any time of year.

Wow Jerry,

Never thought of using golfballs thats a great Idea, kinda like skeet shooting
My brother always asks me to go golfing with him.
The other golfers don't mind that your shooting a gun, what do they charge you for greeen fees ?
:roflmao:

Jim

I went hunting once, in my area, sat in a deer stand and obtained my deer. That was not much of a challenge, so I have not done it since. I can obtain plenty of meat otherwise so there is no need from that aspect.

I have several brothers-in-laws, who live in a rather rural area of the state, who hunt as a main source of their meat and have stocked freezers for the off season. (One of them also has chickens and (domestic) rabbits.) They use what they harvest and I partake when we visit.

But hunting has been beneficial for the animals. When I was a child many years ago, Kentucky had no deer population. Everybody had already killed them all (for all practical purposes).

They have started to re-introduce black bear to the state, which would not have occured the hunters monies.

With the introduction of regulated hunting (including the regulation of the type of ammo) and hunting permits, the deer population has soared over the years - from almost zero. The regulation protects the animals and the permits from hunters raised monies (and no monies from general revenues) which allowed the wildlife services to operate.

Now they are in the process of re-introducing Elk to Kentucky. Without the hunters and their monies, none of this would have occured.

The deer population has soared, actually beyond control. I am 3 miles south of Cincinnati as the crow flies, and the subdivisions go a further 6 miles south. Yet it is not unusual to see a deer cross the Interstate, or to see their bodies on the Interstate where they have been hit by a vehicle. Nor is it unusual to see them in my subdivision or in my yard (which upsets my wife when I point to them and say there is supper).

So hunting, properly and reasonably controlled, serves a purpose.

Jim,

When we go to the desert in Eastern Oregon we always take some golf balls . We play .22 Golf. A golf ball will really take off when hit just right. One hit with a 45-70 usually ends up somewhere in the next county.

Eric here, i recenly purchased a 100% evedenly unfired, 1920 9mm luger carbine, I done some researh and most are selling close to $20,000 but "joe salter has a 1920 variation, for around $7500 i think, before you spend on Georges finest, do your homework, beware of 'piece meal' varieties, Mr simpson a reputable dude, is selling 2 or 3 1902s, but no 1920s much rarer, A hint, a legit 1920 in 9, 3 known have a "v" suffix, just email me, ERIC BRUNING, esq at 'SNOOKEM13@AOL.COM, I foward closeps, God bless the healers,

eric another post stroke/coma brain boop, The 1920 carbines in 9mm had a 't' not a "v" they were latvian 1937 maybe

Hi Eric,

I am not sure who is telling you or how you have concluded that all 1920's 9 mm carbines should be in the 't' suffix block only.

If Ralph Shattuck, he has probably forgotten about this one that went through his WOL shop a year or two ago.

2 guns with a 't' suffix should not lead one to believe all such 1920 9mm carbines must have a 't' suffix.

Also...be cautious of those 100% finish lugers. A gun might be 100% finish, but the more important question should be - Is the finish DWM factory original ?


(The text, below, is what I have posted to you on Jan's Gun Board, as well.)

" Hi Eric,

I recall at least two (2) more 1920 carbines in 9mm going through the Shattuck's WOL shop in the past 3-4 years. Here is one that was listed on one of his previous Lists. I did a cut& paste from his preivous web site list to a MS Word document file; for future reference about this 9 mm 1920's carbine.

As you can see, this one did not have a 't' suffix after the serial number. As you can see from the WOL ad below, this carbine had a serial number of # 36640.

I saw another one (or maybe the same one) in person that Shattuck had at a past Reno gun show about 2 years ago. It was mint as if it just came out of a DWM shop, yesterday. It might have been the one described below, but at the Reno show I did not make note of the serial number as the finish had blinded me ;)

" Item Number: 1153 Stock Number: 6489 LUGER, DWM, 11 7/8â?�, 36640, 9MM. CASED 1920 CARBINE. OWNED BY JOHN MORGAN, TOTAL MINT IN + OUT. AMERICAN EAGLE Price: "

Eric here, im only passing on what i was told, Ralph owns another 1920/ 9mm he informed me that his carbine is also a 't' suffix, The boys in all our florida gunshows, have never, seen one so pristene, i've been offered $24k but wont sell, Its like my 1906 french d'arms ettoine luger, where would i ever find a replacement, like trading in a loving wife, please send me an email from any of our 'luger duders' i've got great closeups taken today of each marking on both beauties, God bless Eric J Bruning, Esq. also i'm purchasing the way cool, aberchrombie leather holster featured on toms, 'phoenixinvestmentarms.com site ya!!

Eric,

Re : The A&F carbine pouch.

1. Does it look like leather that is nearly 85 years old ?

2. Does it smell like "old leather" ?

3. The white stitching looks like modern synthetic thread, IMO. Why would stitching over 85 years old still be so white ?

Eric,

Don't be a fool, and stop throwing your money in the air!! That A&F carbine case being offered by Phoenix investments is a piece of s***. Do you believe that A&F, the most famous sports store in the US during the 1900-1920's, would sell a piece of junk in such poor quality. Wake up, look at the flaws. The person who made that case, must have been drunk or high on drugs!

Lastly, do not believe everything you hear or what is told to you.

Good luck,
Albert

Dear Albert, how can an expert, evaluate the integrety of a relic so claimed, without seeing it first hand, Members of this forum who wish to remain annonomous, have seen, smelt and felt this piece, Its like determining a girl is no virgin, from a 'picture' in your wallet, i will send you closeups, i beleive the holster isnt the issue, but the players are, Ps you were, or others were wrong about the french luger I bought from Tom, and I was forced to submit dna for it and Ralphs' 1920 9mm luger carbine, you know what they say, "opinions are like ?????, God Luck, No Disrespect meant, You have a long History of being a gentleman, and next id love to purchase your russian! YA RABATAU NAY ZAVODYA humbly your eric, esq.

Dear Albert, how can an expert, evaluate the integrety of a relic so claimed, without seeing it first hand, Members of this forum who wish to remain annonomous, have seen, smelt and felt this piece, Its like determining a girl is no virgin, from a 'picture' in your wallet, i will send you closeups, i beleive the holster isnt the issue, but the players are, Ps you were, or others were wrong about the french luger I bought from Tom, and I was forced to submit dna for it and Ralphs' 1920 9mm luger carbine, you know what they say, "opinions are like ?????, God Luck, No Disrespect meant, You have a long History of being a gentleman, and next id love to purchase your russian! YA RABATAU NAY ZAVODYA humbly your eric, esq.

Hi Eric,

Albert is usually right in such early luger matters; you may not want to discount his advice. But it is only $ 3500 and it is your money and not really anyone else's business how it is spent.

FWIW...Here is a photo of an A&F carbine pouch in Kenyon's 1st. book "Lugers at Random" on page 402.

At the time it was photographed it belonged in the collection of luger book author Michael Reese.

From this photo, you can compare construction details of this Reese A&F carbine pouch to the "item" for sale with Tom/Ralph at Phoenix Investment Arms. Here is a link to the "item' for sale at PIA :

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/afcarrycase.htm

Some of the details I note on this Reese pouch that are not on the PIA offering are :

1. Totally different handle construction quality and style of handle.

2. The Reese pouch has its closure flaps re-inforced with metal studs.

3. The Reese pouch has larger closure flaps and the closure straps are sewn lower/down towards the ends of the flaps. The dimensions on the PIA item seem all wrong with the flaps too small and the straps sewn up too high towards the top of the flaps.

4. The style of the A&F log stamping on the Reese pouch is a different style that on the PIA pouch. (I have posted photos of both styles of A&F logo's used on other holsters of the time.

5. The shape of the closure straps where they are sewn to the flaps on the Reese pouch have a unique shape that is not duplicated on the PIA offering.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...rbine_case.jpg


Here are the A&F logo photo scans from Euguene Bender's large book on luger holsters; showing two styles of A&F logos :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/af_logo_1.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/af_logo_2.jpg

Hello Eric,

Your comments are welcomed, and you may be correct that some people/members may wish to remain annonomous who may have examined the so-called A&F carbine case from PIA. You have the right to believe any body who you want, but I would not be convinced that this A&F case is genuine. It does not have the quality, workmanship nor consistency of a carbine case made in the 1910-1925 period. For your information, I own the two BEST/FINEST Luger carbine cases known to exist (including the A&F case which Pete has posted above from the previous Reese collection) and I know very well the details to examine. Sometimes it is necessary to examine an item in ones hands before making an opinion, but I can make an exception in this situation with regards to the A&F case from PIA because it reveals too many inconsistencies and flaws. Pete has provided you some good points and details to consider, and then afterwards, make your own judgement.

Some so-called 'experts' will never tell you the truth, but if you ask me, I shall tell it to your face. In other words, if the item is wrong, I will say so based on my 20+ years of experience; if the item is correct, I shall congratulate you on your purchase or find; or if I am not sure, I shall say that I am not fully qualified to make an opinion in that field. I admit that I am not an expert in all German pistols, but I know my 'stuff' because my opinions come from experience, expertise, knowledge, literature and comparisons. 'Without blowing my whistle', I have examined the finest Luger and Mauser pistols/carbines known to exist in very prominent collections, so I believe that I can give you some good advice, with all your due respect, of course. The only important Luger which I have not yet examined in my hands is the .45 Luger. However, I have examined in my hands the three other .45 pistols which used to be in the Abermann collection, in addition to a few other pre-war German .45 caliber pistols.

I am sorry if I have disappointed you as a result of you gaining the wrong 'picture' of some unfortunate situations in the collector's society, but hopefully time and experience will enlighten you.

Good luck,
Albert

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/scabbard.jpg

PS: The carbine scabbard shown above (in my collection) is made of pigskin and follows the European style/design. Some collectors would believe that these scabbards were made by DWM, but it is my opinion that a maker would have made these scabbards for DWM who offered them as accessories.

Albert, A very nice example to be sure! I have never seen one made like this...No carry handle, shoulder strap?
The cleaning rod sleeve and double mag pouch are a nice touch.
Very unusual leather.
All nicely crafted. A case anyone would be proud to own.
I wonder if you could elucidate on what this case is lined with?
Thanks, Jerry Burney

Hello Jerry,

I have the strap which is carefully rolled inside the case and I do not leave it fastened to the loops. In addition, I also have the original carbine cleaning rod and loading tool which came with the case. It was only missing the three spare magazines - damn! The case does not have any special type of lining.

Notice that the buckle is covered with leather which is very finely stitched. Also the buckle on the strap is covered in leather. My early carbine sling (stamped 'Abercombie & Fitch, made in Austria' with no logo) is also covered with leather on the buckle. I have also seen an early Mauser C96 leather carry case (full length) and a strap with leather covered buckles. It is my opinion that leather covered buckles were used in early production for commercial holsters and cases up to about 1912-14. My A&F carrying case (probably made in the US) has brass buckles and it was probably made between 1915-1920.

The pigskin scabbard is the same model which is also shown in the book LAR in the same chapter where it shows the identical A&F case which is in my collection. The quality of stitching on the pigskin scabbard is outstanding - there are no 'jaggies' or shaking during the sewing process, not even along the tube section for the cleaning rod - it shows early German workmanship at its highest level.

Someday when we meet at a gun show, I shall glady show you both scabbards. I am sure that you will appreciate the quality of both cases.

Cheers,
Albert

Hi Albert,

I have "borrowed" your photo from your web page to show Eric what your authentic A&F carbine case/pouch looks like in glorious color.

I was not aware you had purchased this item from M. Reese. Very nice piece to own. I know you are proud to own it.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/lugercarbine.jpg

Hello Pete,

Indeed, I am very proud of both carbine scabbards. If I remember correctly, I purchased the A&F case in 1997 from a collector in California who had purchased it from Reese many years before. At that time, I paid a hefty amount for this case, but I do not regret it. It would be extremely difficult to find another one of this style marked A&F.

Since the picture was taken, I have added the following items to the set/display: an original A&F catalog dated 1910 listing the M1902 Carbine; an original Hans Tauscher catalog from 1912-14; a small universal 'sewing' oil can; an early glass bottle of 3-in-1 oil, sealed with all its oil (yes, the very popular 3-in-1 oil was sold by A&F in their catalog for hunters and fishermen); an early A&F hunting season timetable; and a first issue 1917 hunting license badge from the state of New York.

There are still a few 'bits n' pieces' which I am seeking to completely round out a set.

Enjoy,
Albert

Pete, Thanks for the great photo..I will put it in my archives of superior leather.
Albert, Yes, I noticed the leather covered buckles. A sure sign of early quality. Thank you for the information on lining. I have made a couple of these cases and am still perfecting the details. I have lined some in cloth and some with a very soft pigskin. The pigskin is excellent. I would prefer to line some with shearling but that material is somewhat difficult.

These types of cases are not exactly common, to have a good original is a prize !
Thanks, Jerry Burney

Hello Jerry,

If I had to give a theory on the type of material used for a lining in a carbine scabbard, the order would be as follows: thin suede-like material something like 'shami' cloth; a good quality cloth; wool-like material or 'fleece'. (excuse the spelling mistakes describing these materials)

If you notice on the pigskin scabbard, the flap and two bottom edges are covered with another piece of pigskin leather for reinforcement and protection. (The bottom of the scabbard expands outwards when the stock is inserted). The black stitching along these boarder edges are very fine/small.

Keep up your excellent work

Albert

Tac,
Oy, indeed! Glad to see you back in communication. I trust you have not developed webbed feet in soggy Tokyo.

Used to go to Japan for 3-weeks each year when I worked for a Japanese company based in the Pacific NW...sure missed a baked-potatoe with all the fixin's when I was there...:D

Albert, Thank you for the great info...I agree on the lining analysis...Actually I suppose these cases would not need to be lined at all as most Luger holsters are not. The suede on the interior acts as it's lining. Shearling would be the most elegant but the hardest to work with.
Thanks for the interest and input on a very interesting subject. Jerry Burney

Eric,

Back to the issue of the numbering of 1920's carbines in 9mm variety :

In C. Kenyon's 2nd. book (L-TMNP) on page 48 he describes and displays a photo of a 9 mm stocked carbine (also minty...) with the reported serial number of # 72302.

This one Kenyon calls a "1914" commerical carbine as the proofing and serial number places it in the 1914 time period. Photo caption "A" states it is in 9 mm.

Another possiblity is that this carbine was a product of a very, very good, skilled mechanic in Waffenfabrik-USA and was so good it even fooled this luger expert and author.

9mm Carbines have been around for a long time. Back around 1968 I found a beautiful 9mm 1902 Carbine in Alamogordo, NM. It had come out of a collection of a retired Air Force NCO. It was for sale, but $2500 was a lot of money for a new Captain with couple of kids, so I had to pass.
I do not see any compelling reason to suspect the "1914 Commercial Carbine" is anything other than what Charlie says it is. Waffenfabrik-USA isn't responsible for every Luger that doesn't fall neatly into a particular category.
I do not know if the Carbine that Ralph has, or had, that formerly belonged to John Morgan is the same one I am acquainted with. I do know that John was a consummate craftsman, capable of world class machining and restoration. John made a Carbine, and I know this because I gave him the stock lug that he grafted onto the Carbine. It was left over from a junk frame that I had cut the web out of to convert a 1900 frame from a flat mainspring to a coil mainspring. John had many Lugers, so the Carbine that Ralph was selling may or may not be the one John made. The serial number range makes me suspect it might be, since 36640 is pretty low for a 1920, or even a 1914.