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First Luger
Greetings everyone!
I am three days into my ten-day waiting period to acquire my first Luger, a 1920 DWM military pistol. The numbers match and the outward condition looks good. It fires but the action is stiff and won't fully chamber a round. I have no knowledge nor desire to disassemble the weapon. The dealer says that a military cartridge instead of a standard 9mm may solve the problem. Once I take delivery I plan to head to the firing range. Is there any advice I can get concerning oiling, cleaning, etc? Needless to say I am very excited and anxious to make it work properly. I am new to handguns in general though I became familiar with M14 and M16 rifles during the VietNam War. I did my year at the 43rd Signal Battalion near Pleiku and II Corps HQ. It's good to find a group like this. I hope my selected username is not too pretentious. Thank you all, Parabellus |
Parabellus,
Congratulations on (almost) owning your first Luger, and welcome to the Luger Forum. Before you take your Luger to the range, you need to have it checked out by a good gunsmith who is particularly knowledgable about Lugers. The failure to fully chamber a cartridge is a problem which must be addressed. Your dealer's ammunition solution betrays his inexperience with these guns, and a cavalier attitude regarding your safety. As you live in the Bay area, you have the good fortune to be near one of the premier Lugersmiths in the country. Look up Mike Krause, and run this problem by him. I don't know his address offhand, but there are probably people here who can tell you. Good luck, and let us all know how things come out. --Dwight |
Russ, welcome to the forum! I moved your thread here, once you became an actual member you can post in other areas.
A simple disassembly and through oiling might take care of the problem. If you are going to shoot it, then you'll need to learn to take her apart anyway. A complete disassembly is not required, nor suggested. ed |
Thank you Dwight,
I tried a quick search for Mike Krause but got no useful hits. I'll keep trying and/or find a person who can look it over more carefully. Even though it should have some collector's value I really want to be able to shoot. Would a wire bore brush be appropriate for cleaning such a weapon? I'm sure I need to read much more deeply to find such basic information. Thanks again, Parabellus |
Thank you Ed,
I better get busy and learn how to field strip my Luger. If that free's up the action enough to chamber the cartridge should it be regarded as safe to fire? The dealer did fire it into the tank several times but he had to manually chamber the rounds or press down on the toggle to complete the action. It's really good to meet you folks. Russ |
Hi,
Fieldstripping a luger for cleaning and lubrication purposes is actually very simple. I usually use a plastic wire brush for basic cleaning, then a cloth brush with a tiny amount of oil to finish it off. This is for simple cleaning after shooting. The brass wire brush works fine if the pistol really has a lot of crud in it, but once you get it to a servicable level again, you won't need it that much. Here you can find a quick reference to luger fieldstripping: http://www.vlimmere.demon.nl/Parabel...dstripping.pdf |
Thank you too Gerben,
This will definitely help me. Now I have some information so I can move forward with a little confidence. Sure, there will be more questions. Now I know where to turn for answers. Russ |
Para, Hopefully your dealer wasn't firing 9mm thru a 7.65mm 1920 commerical. Mike Krause of Krause Werke in San Mateo, can certainly tell you what you have. If your not in SM Co. there are several other Forum members in the Bay Area, that I'm sure would be willing to help. TH
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Looking through the Rogues Gallery I see ther is already a 'Russ' so I guess I'll sign off as.....
Russell |
Russ; and remember, it doesn't need to be taken all the way down for cleaning, I always just take the barrel / receiver off of the bottom, take the breachblock group out and clean the barrel, wiping everything else down...
Ed |
OK, I have Krause Werke in my sights. It's two miles from my workplace. I'll have them look it over and advise me accordingly. It sounds like Mike Krause is the man to talk to in my area. This keeps getting better and better. Thanks Doc & Ed.
Russell |
Hello again friends,
Here it is: P-08 9mm DWM #83808 1920. At least if I can manage the upload. I have yet to take it down at all. I thought I would take it first to Kraus Werke and have them check it out for utility and collectability. If everything matches (except the mag) I may take the advice I read on the forum and switch out some breakable parts if available. One question though. In other places I have read that a mixed C-96 can be dangerous for the user. Is there similar concern regarding the P-08? Also, is there any part that should not or cannot be swapped out (like the bolt on the M14)? I am truly elated with my acquisition. I never thought I could get so excited about a gun. http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...3808_1920r.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...3808_1920l.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...8_1920ltru.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...8_1920ldet.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...3808_1920b.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...3808_1920t.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload..._1920fopen.jpg Russell |
Well, it sort of worked.
Now it looks right. :D |
Photo Displlay in your posts
Hi Russell,
Welcome to the Lugerforum... The trick about displaying your photos is to use the (img) and (/img) tags instead of the url tags directly in front and behind your image locations and put a carriage return in between the photo syntax and you can put up to eight images in each post... only the tags use the hard brackets instead of parentheses... [ ] I edited your last post to display that photo... you can do the same by using the edit icon on your own posts and editing the syntax as I have described. It is a very nice commercial Luger... it is definitely a keeper... even though it was not a wartime manufacture, you have the essence of the quality produced by DWM in the early 20th century... Enjoy it... the design is timeless. |
Nice police in need of a new police sear safety...
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hmm, is this one of those interesting ones that had the 8 added???
Jan Stills forum [quote]This is an interesting find that I came across. A friend of mine received an e-mail and was told about a Luger, in the discussion he found out that it more than likely was a Weimar Police and he kindly put me in touch with him. Then I "tried" to give him some advice, and he offered me the Luger. It is a 1921 DWM Commercial, there are several things about it that make me wonder, but it was seemingly "untouched" when I got it. Bore was full of years of grime and the grips had spots of rust under them, although with some freckling and spots of rust that cleaned up nicely. http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...idesmaller.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...0_1921date.jpg Here are the oddities of this gun: It seemingly is a five digit commercial, its numbering is in line with the year (1921), however, and this is something that could be a manufacturing error (?) or is it possible that the gun started as imperial parts and became a "commercial" The serial number is marked on the left in the commercial fashion and also at the front of the trigger guard. HOWEVER, under the commercial serial number is an "a" and on the barrel it is marked with the last FOUR and a suffix "a". The toggle pin was broken, but I am not overly worried about that, although it is a shame and it is tight unless you take it out. It did not come out easy and I believe it had not been out for many years. It has a sear safety but no magazine safety was ever installed. The sear has been stamped with what is believed to be a repair stamping. http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...decloseup1.jpg In addition to having a sear safety, it is police (unit) marked O.P.M. 274 on the front grip strap, I could not find a correlation in my book for this marking? http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...icemarking.jpg The magazine is not matching, but is stamped as a police with the serial number and the number 1. Here is a close up of the left side, the sideplate looks a bit odd, possibly force matched by a police armory, it is crown B stamped, again "probably" a repair stamping. http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...idesmaller.jpg 1921 DWM â??Commercialâ? Serial number Grip Strap Marking Sear Safety? unknown O.P.M. 90 83591a O.P.M. 274 83240a O.P.M. 305 83203a O.P.M. 309 83282a O.P.M. 431 83426a S.Hn CHART Showing Info http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...1gripstrap.jpg |
Now I am thoroughly dumfounded (besides being utterly ignorant). The number on my 1920 is higher than the 1921 described. I do not even know what the sear is much less if it needs a safety. What I gather is that mine is a commercially produced police Luger as opposed to any kind of military firearm. Please enlighten me.
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Hi,
You're not far from the truth. During 1920 and 1921 DWM produced a series of pistols for the Weimar police and reichswehr. As DWM was operating on a skeleton crew and had access to loads of parts (and probably guns) left over from the war production, they probably used whatever they had lying around. It seems both the pistols shown were initially commercially proofed, 'commercial' pistols, which received military style numbering afterwards. It's actually obvious on your pistol, as the serial number on the receiver is partially struck over the crown/N firing proof. What is interesting is the difference in the number '3' between the two pistols shown. An interesting pistol. |
You can look up the parts by name in the technical section of our website. The upper receiver left side contains the sear bar, held in place by a flat spring. The front of the sear has a springloaded button that is the disconnector.
You gun configuration = police use because the top of your sideplate has a rectangular notch where the pin that dropped into the sear to prevent it's movement when the sideplate was removed. There is also a small hole in the projection on the upper receiver that covers the sear bar where the sear safety was riveted. The entire sear safety has been removed. The use of the safety is dubious and it was only used on Police service Lugers. If you can find the parts and have them installed it would "complete" your Luger, but as long as you know that a chambered round could be discharged by pressing inward on the front of the sear with the upper receiver removed from the grip frame. So a forum search for "sear safety" and you will find photos of the install parts... |
My feeling on these "contract" commercials, is that they were taken from some unit or storage area and given the 'extra" 8 part of the serial number to distinguish them from another contract.
The big question I did not ask last night was; Does yours have an "a" suffix? Ed PS: Here is what a sear safety looks like from the side, top with one, bottom without; http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...safe_copy2.jpg |
Russell,
The position and 'look' of the 1920 on the receiver suggests to me that this is the 1920 property mark, not a production date. It would be very useful to see a photo of the serial number on the front of the frame. --Dwight |
Thank you all for the support.
So, Gerben, is this hodgepodge of parts likely to negatively impact the value and/or serviceability of the Luger? The serial # at the front of the frame is not in any of the pics I took yet. It is partially still white. The '3' has a round top as on the bottom of the barrel but unlike the receiver # flat-top digit. If '8' was added later would it be the leading digit, Dwight? There is no letter â??aâ?? that I can see. What would that have signified, Ed? Yes, John, now I see the sear. I see the notch and hole. And thanks for helping me get my HTML straight. Would adding a sear safety substantially increase the value, or the safety, of the weapon, Howard? And thanks to Thomas and Dwight for pointing me to Mike Krause here in San Mateo. With any luck he will be in this afternoon. Hope he has an inexpensive holster for sale. You guys are great. It looks like you started this forum as recently as 2002. You have obviously been collecting and sharing for years unto decades. I'd love to hear how this all got started. With respect and admiration, Russell |
Russell, all the ones I have seen so far, that are like mine, are "a" suffixed. So, yours may not be, it just fits the pattern, Crown n, off-set numbering on the left, 1920 or 1921 dated...
ed |
Took it to Krause Werke this afternoon. As I get it, Mike says it is a 1920 rework for police use after which it probably saw service in the Third Reich military minus the sear safety. Not all the parts are numbered.
Also, as I hear him, the five digit serial # continued through the 9xxxx and was later dropped in favor of four digits plus a letter suffix. Makes sense when you are producing hundreds of thousands of guns for a major war. Now one starts to think about the skeletons. How many European and American soldiers as well as innocents might it have been used to take out? I got my holster and take-down tool from Mike. He has several fine looking Lugers including an Artillery piece I especially like. The finish is superb and the ramp-sight has all of its teeth. He has a few C96 Broomhandles including a Red 9 he is readying for sale. The shop is full of all manner of rifles and pistols and relic revolvers. There are lots of other militaria to browse. What a candy store! Before I left I made sure I could fieldstrip and re-assemble properly. I am actually beginning to get comfortable. Most of the credit goes to contributers to this forum. Thanks again for your warm welcome. My new avatar is M-1. Astronomer Charles Messier's 18th century catalog of non-stellar celestial objects begins with Messier 1 the Crab Nebula supernova remnant. If I ever find a celestial object designated P-08 you will see it here. Russell |
Russell,
What did Mike tell you about the failure of the toggle to completely close? --Dwight |
Fair enough, Tac.
No need to dwell on that aspect of our history (my family is of German descent). As for the concern about the sticky toggle, Dwight, the dealer may have oiled it up; it seems to work fine now. I hope to put 50 or 100 rounds through it this weekend. I'll definitely be watching out for any malfunctions. Thanks |
I'm a bit late on this, but I believe Dwights thought of the 1920 being a property mark and not a production date is correct. If it was a 1920 production, it would have dove proofs and/or WaA4 acceptance marks on the right side of the receiver. I cannot see any proofs in the photos.
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Russell,
If you enter the website through our homepage www.lugerforum.com you will find that in the top edge of the largest frame that this forum was founded in 1998 by a fellow named John Chapman.. who to the best of my knowledge is no longer a member, but I don't know why. It started on a free server located in Taiwan of all places, but moved to its current location and in its current format in 2002. |
Russell
Where is Mike's shop located? Is it open to the public or his personal work area? I make it down that way every once in a while and would like to see some of the "good stuff" that is out in the public. Jerry |
Mike's shop did have a website but Network solutions is reporting that his domain name Krausewerk.com expired on April 2, 2006...
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KrausewerK Collectibles
83 21st Ave. San Mateo, CA 94403 650-571-7583, Fax 650-851-2474 Mike is in the store mostly early afternoon. He seems to spend much of the time answering the phone. Now that the address and phone # are out there I don't expect his stock of Lugers to last long. Just leave me first shot at his C-96 Red 9, Zin. 1998 still seems like a short time to have reached such an eclectic group of Luger lovers, or, may I coin a term? 'Lugermaniacs' That is what my wife thinks I am becoming. She could be right! I met her in Taiwan of all places. Here is the frame front serial # as Dwight suggested as well as the bottom of the barrel. A little late, I admit. Looks like he and Ron are correct. http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...808_1920ft.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...808_1920bt.jpg |
Russell,
Thanks for the pics. I'm curious to know what the stamp is over the serial number on the barrel, and whether or not the barrel has a witness mark? --Dwight |
Russell,
contrary to what TAC said, its hard not to wonder about the history of this gun. There are so many variations and so much to learn. I have started accumulating books on audio tapes about WW1 and am now a very amateur historian of this period. I just finished a book called "The 11th hour of the the 11th day of the 11th month" and I cried a bit while reading it. So much needless suffering in the last hours of that war. The last American soldier to officially die in combat died at 10:59AM and everyone on both sides knew that the treaty was signed at 6am that day. But he was ordered to attack a village at 10:30AM that the Americans would occupy, by treaty, the next day. But, aside from that, if your Lugers toggle continues to not close after you clean it, you might look into getting a new main spring that is located in the handle of the gun. Your spring may be either worn out or even may be the wrong size. Check with your gunsmith about that. Could be dangerous. Big Norm |
Dwight,
The small stamp on the barrel looks like a normal commercial crown/N proof, a bit poorly struck. You also see that the original commercial style numbering is still present on the takedown lever. It wouldn't surprise me if the barrel is original to the gun. It has the overall appearance of a normal commercial gun that had a 1920 property mark and military style numbering added. The question is whether the renumbering was done by DWM or by some police/reichswehr armorer. The fact that it's numbered in the 80,000 range is interesting. |
Gerben,
I suspected that about the barrel proof, just wanted to confirm as the barrel is 9mm. I'm sure that Police use accounts for a number of this gun's characteristics, note the long (unrelieved) sear bar, unexpected on a gun this late. This part of the serial number range has quite a few 1920 marked chambers (some of them may be dates), 9mm, Police guns, at least one with an SPC mark. --Dwight |
Before I add my two cents to the discussion about the 5-digit serial number, I'd like to ask Russell about the unit mark on the bottom of the front grip strap. The photo is somewhat unclear but it looks like SP. over ?. I can't make out the ? or whether there is a period between the S and P. I would greatly appreciate a clear photo of the mark or a good description. I'm also interested in knowing if the front of the grip strap appears to have been ground.
Notwithstanding the above uncertainties, your pistol belonged to the Schutzpolizei (SP. or S.P.) in one of the major cities in the Weimar German state of Saxony. The city is designated by the abbreviation below the SP. The most common one is Leipzig (L.). If the front of the grip strap has been ground, it almost certainly was to remove an earlier unit mark of the form S.L.Pol.xxxx. (S?¤chsische Landespolizei) of the State Police of Saxony. Now, about the serial number. Not long ago, I posted the following on the new NAPCA forum hoping for some additional information on the topic Ed brought up here. So far, I have had no response. Perhaps someone can clear up a couple of puzzles regarding DWMâ??s production in 1920 and 1921. The conventional wisdom as I understand it is that DWM resumed production in 1919-20 with two lines of production. One line was the â??commercialâ? line beginning with approximately s/n 75000. This five-digit numbering scheme continued into 1921 up to about 92000 when it was replaced by the approach of limiting the numbers to blocks from 1 to 9999 followed by a letter suffix. The first of these was numbered approximately 2000i. The numbers were repeated with the letters incrementing through h, k, etc. to u when DWM (BKIW) production was transferred to Mauser in 1930. The other production line was for military and police contracts. These pistols were chamber dated 1920 and 1921 and the parts serial numbered in the military style. Serial numbers began each year with 1 to 9999 no suffix and progressed through two successive blocks of numbers with â??aâ? and â??bâ? suffixes. This line of production was shut down in 1921 at the insistence of the Interallied Military Control Commission. In my research into police unit markings, I have run across two challenges to this conventional wisdom. Five-digit serial numbers beginning with â??8â? About two years ago, there was a discussion on Jan Stillâ??s forum about several 1921-dated DWMs with five-digit serial numbers in the 8XXXX range and an â??aâ? suffix (http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=664). Most of these were police unit marked O.P.M.xxx. A recent thread on the same forum revived this subject and came to the tentative conclusion that this marking represented the Ordnungspolizei of Mecklenberg-Schwerin (http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5988). It was speculated that an â??8â? had been prefixed to the original serial numbers but no reason was identified. In my database of police unit marks there are a number of 1921-dated Lugers with 8XXXXa serial numbers. There are also a number of examples of 1920 and 1921-dated pistols without suffixes that I am beginning to suspect really belong with this group. Hereâ??s what I have so far: 1920 dated, no suffix 83970 One intermediate 85260 1921 dated, no suffix 85473 8723x S.W.I.775 87893 S.W.I.719. 886xx S.H.888 88980 S.H.1208. 894xx S.W.I.1.145 At least two intermediate 89572 1921 dated, â??aâ? suffix unknown O.P.M. 90 83203a O.P.M. 309 83204a O.P.M. 399 83240a O.P.M. 305 83282a O.P.M. 431 83426a S.Hn. 83591a O.P.M. 274 The entries without a unit mark and the statements about intermediate serial numbers are based on information in Jan Stillâ??s Weimar Lugers, Table 1a, p. 13. These represent serial numbers that have been included under the heading WEIMAR 5 DIGIT SN DWM LUGER. I am wondering if all of the above should be considered together. I suspect this topic has been discussed in Auto Mag in past years and would appreciate any insights that may have been gained. Ed has already posted some of the data listed above. If the chamber mark on Russell's gun is really the 1920 property stamp and it was originally part of DWM's postwar commercial production, there may be no real anomaly about it's serial number. The serial number on Russel's gun is centered on the frame and does not suggest that the lead "8" was added. This may also indicate that the other three pistols listed above as "1920 dated" fall into the same category. However, the same cannot be said for the "1921 dated" pistols with or without the "a" suffix. |
Yes, the proof mark on the barrel is rather shallow and incomplete. The dealer did check the bore when I bought it and it takes and extracts 9mm cortridges properly. Just for the heck of it I chambered a .380 ACP casing which it could not extract but fit loosly and fell out easily. As you can tell I'm just now beginning to learn the peculiarities of different callibers and types of ammo and firearms in general. Anyway, tomorrow is shakedown day.
The grips have no numbering. Does this mean I can put on other grips that are less worn without diminishing the value? The damage to the right grip looks to have been traumatic and recent. Big Norm's comments deserve further exploration which I guess would be best served in the 'Off Topic' section. I really appreciate all of you Luger experts taking time and bandwidth to help guide us newcommers. Don, The letter under 'SP' is 'S' Russell |
Quote:
In ref to your grips. Keep the "originals" and it doesn't matter what is on them. Evenif unmarked / unnumbered, not all of them were, so they could be original, depending on the age of them etc... ed |
Russel,
According to a survey I did a bit earlier on the topic, grips on commercial Lugers in your serial range can be expected to be found without numbers. --Dwight |
Russell,
Are you sure that it is an S under the SP? There were no cities in Saxony beginning with S that appear to have been large enough for a Schupo unit. Observed abbreviations are L, C, D, M and Zw. I would also not be surprised to see D?¶, P or Pl, R, Re or Ri, F, Z or Zi or G. But not S! Would it be possible for you to post a clear photo of the mark? Also, what about a period or not between the S and P and whether the front grip strap has been ground? It seems that you may have the only known (to me) example of a pistol from whatever city it turns out to be! |
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