UPS Rant
 

I really really really hate UPS. It appears they just "lost" a P-38 that I had sent to me overnight. I tried to pursaude the sender to use Fedex. I guess I should have pushed harder.

Steve? What? no Delivery Tracking number on a UPS OVERNIGHT SHIPMENT? No Insurance? Unheard of... You should have recourse if you have a tracking number... someone is financially liable for this shipment...

UPS is pretty bad; they have had a lot of problems with their staff stealing packages that were marked as containing firearms. Additionally, their "service" is laughable. If you are ever in NoVA and want some entertainment, go to the UPS hub in Alexandria around 5 PM some day and watch the action as very frustrated people try to retrieve packages twhen delivery was attempted unsuccessfully.

It is reminiscent of a quote from an East German guide I had when touring behind the iron curtain in the early '80s..."We pretend to work and the State pretends to pay us" the difference being that the UPS folks are all union, so they get paid regardless of the quality of service.

Tom A

Tom dont forgot about our little issue with had with UPS when I bought the 1915 from you.
I have a tracking number and Insurance for the package. I have spoken to serveral Supervisors at UPS and they said they dont know where it is at. They told me that the when you track it on the website it "autofills" the next few scans even though they havent occured. The last time it was actaully scanned was in Philly, though it shows it is out for delivery.

Tom,

We can't forget the first rule is to NOT mark the package as containing firearms. Alas, if you read the rules of most airlines for shipping firearms, you are required to not mark the parcel or luggage as containing such.

I have a personal friend who is the federal agent in charge of release of goods coming into the Phoenix (Sky Harbor) airport. He says that since the airlines have all outsourced luggage movement, the lost (stolen) rate has gone up more than 40% in the last year. You really don't want to hear the real life stories behind the scene there especially with our World renoun Sherriff Arpiao in town.

This leaves us with a most impractical method of SAFELY transporting firearms: self delivery. My friend tells me that the best thing to do is first NOT mark whats is contained in a box and second camaflouge it to look like everything else that is shipping even if it means paying a bit more by putting it in a larger package. The worst part is that all packages are x-rayed and if there are deviants doing that process, there is NO way to protect yourself. The only hope we mave have, and it is a shot in the dark, is insurance and registtration, but that will not get the gun back in all cases.

Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ

I have had insured deliveries of cases get lost for up to a week!!! Luckily, I've never completely lost a case. I always ship insured/Next Day Air, and apparently sometimes that may mean Next Week Air. It appears that a forum member (over in the RESTORATION FORUM) had a $2000 gun left on his doorstep, and he feels Ted is to blame... maybe so, but it sure sounds like UPS' M.O. to me.

Dok

Can't you ask UPS to hold it at their facility for pick up ??

(Which is what sometimes happens when a signature is required and no one is at home.)

If you care about your shipment FedEx is the ONLY way to go.

A couple of the merely annoying occurances salted in amongst my true UPS horror stories involves their failure to to hold packages when I've asked them to.

--Dwight

I agree that Fed Ex is the way to go, but for the past year or so I have been using DHL with the best success all around and lower costs.

One note on UPS, I collect artwork from several animators from the glory days of animation (pre Computer), and the invoices for these could buy some of the finest Lugers in the world. To the point, however, I sometimes never have notice of a shipment from my gallery. One day I was taking out some garbage and right inside the fence to the garbage area was a large box which I recognized immediately.

The box contained a one off from Chuck Jones (who has deceased) and from what I could piece together, the UPS delivery was 3 days prior and it had ben sitting outside for 3 115 degree days. Luckily it wasn't rained upon and was packed well enough to prevent injury.

UPS had never given me notice that they had placed the $7000.00 package there, nor did they care that it needed a signature and delivery receipt. From that day on, all UPS deliveries have been personal to me.

Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ

Jack how did you use DHL their office here has a large sign - no firearms--? Bob Benson

I have had problems with DHL (on non-firearm items) as I refuse to be present for 12 hours - just to wait for their delivery and refuse to drive 45 miles to pick it up at their facility. (The post office is 400 feet away, UPS is 3 miles and fedex is 4 miles.)

Consequently, about 95% of DHL items are returned to the sender.

Once, having missed their delivery on a Wednesday, I called them and told them that I was going to be gone on Thirsday and Friday, and they agreed to deliver it the following Monday. But on Monday, they sent it back becuase they had made two delivery attempts on Thursday and Friday when I was not there.


I think that the situation is that they all know that there are only a few delivery companies and since the serivce is similar they think they have you locked in.


A few years ago I had interent access thru the local telephone company. We became involved in a disagreement over service and I refused to pay. I was told that if I did not pay, they would stop my service and then I would have to tell all the people of a new email address and explained to me how hard this would be, etc. - so I had better comply with them.

I told them where to put it and explained to them that my email was thru Yahoo and that nothing was dependent upon their service except the connection itself which was easily obtainable from any other company. They had no answer. As a sequel, when the collection agency contacted me, I told them that I disputed the debt setting forth the grounds, then told them not to contact me any more but that if they felt that they had a good case, then sue me.

Its been four years and I have not yet been sued.

Just an addition to "lew's" comment about collection agencies. All they can do is threaten and intimidate. It costs too much to file a court claim and they don't want to take the chance of losing a claim in court, because then they pay the bill. They have no power in litigation.

I don't use UPS (too expensive). I have used FedEx once at the buyer's request.

I am a retired Postal Employee, therefore a bit biased, but I know how the system works and I trust it. I always use Priority insured mail with Delivery Confirmation. For the best security, use Registered mail. It's slower (for a reason), but the most secure way to ship any valuable item. And is less expensive than Priority Insured for the most part.

Just walk in like you know what you are doing. Hand them the Form 1508( or ask for a Form 1508 if you don't have one) with the parcel. If they ask, tell them that you are federally licensed to sell and receive hand guns. As per Postal Regulations in the Domestic Mail Manual (DMM). They really don't need to know anymore than that.

ALWAYS use the terms ANTIQUE and COLLECTABLE.

ie; "It's an antique collector grade pistol."

That leads them away from the thought of it being a usable gun. Don't lie, just don't volunteer anymore information than they need to know.

Ron

Ron, I asked my local PO for a form 1508 and they did have any. I vote for Fed Ex for shipping firearms. My last transaction with UPS was years ago, when I received a delivery from Seecamp invoiced for 5 pistols and only 4 where present. It turned out that the bottom of the box had been neatly opened and resealed, probably at the depot. TH

Hi Tom,

A form 1508 is not a merely a form that they choose to have on hand. It is a required form that they will have, as per the Postal Inspection Service. You might drop the hint the next time you visit your Post Office. It is a one page form that can be downloaded from their Point of Sale Primary computer. Tell them to get it from "Form Fill". (Postal language) it may make them wonder how you know this. ;)

I agree with Ron.

With one exception, I have always used USPS for handguns never had any problems.

The difference between priority insured and registered is that a basic insurance is included in the registered and the rates for the excess are lower than than regular insurance. So for higher value items, registered tends to be cheaper.

Well the pistol arrived at my door a day late for overnight shipping. I wont go into all the details of my phone calls with them. They still have no explanation as to why it was late or what happened to it. Ron it was my understanding that you could only ship long guns via post office.

FFL dealers (01) can ship handguns thru the post office.

Methinks I sense a business opportunity here.

rk

Steve, Shhhhhh.... ;)

I have talked to Postal Inspectors about this. I have never gotten a firm yes or no. Most replies were "That's a gray area. I'm not sure."

Federal Firearms regs. state that as a C&R holder, you can legally use any carrier. Postal Regs. say Licensed dealers. Technically , a C&R is an FFL to deal(exchange , trade or accept ) specified firearms.

I am not telling anyone to violate any Federal or Postal regulation. However, until I am told otherwise by someone in authority. I will continue to use the carrier of my choice.

Ron

C&R is a license to collect, not a license to engage in business. A dealer engages in business. So postal regs saying a licensed dealer would not mean a C&R.

Even if a gray area, do you want to be the one who spends 20/30 thousand in attorney fees?

Charles,

That's not correct. You do not need a license to collect. You need a license to receive specified firearms directly from a seller or in trade. Or in some instances to transfer firearms.

Dealers trade, dealers buy for their own collections. dealers invest. The term dealer, does not mean specifically to engage in business.

Ron

True - if the firearms are purchased in the same state in which you reside. And it is true that a license is not needed to collect as long as you do it within the state of your residence.

But the trend of this string was the interstate shipment of firearms and that was the context in which my statements and the prior statements were being made. The interstate shipment and, for that matter, the intra state shipment by carriers such as UPS, FedEx, USPS is controlled by either federal law, federal regulation or the carriers rules. (Of course, you can always deiver the handgun yourself within the confines of the state in which you reside and you do not need a license for that. Likewise you can try to pursuade USPS to handle the shipment if the point of delivery is in the same state in which you reside if you do not have a license. )

Your definition of 'dealer' does not match what ATF considers to be a dealer so you are incorrect there.

I don't understand your comment.

"if the firearms are purchased in the same state in which you reside."

I can own or collect as many firearms as I want without a license. The license simply allows me to legally receive 'specified" firearms from any state.


My whole point being. That USPS regulations and ATF regulations contradict. I have pointed this out to the Postal Inspectors. And have asked which reg. trumps the other. They can't tell me.

What it boils down to , is that the Postal Service regulation is a mis-interpuratation of the ATF regulation. Or if you wish, a simplification of the ATF regs. Merely meant to be a general guide for Postal Employees.

As I said, I was a T6 and Finance Tech. for nearly 20 years. For lack of a better word a "Foreman" refered to as a Lead Clerk. I oversaw 6 to 8 Window Clerks, advised them and translated the regulations for them. In constant contact with the district office to clarify the regulations. I was also a Window clerk trainer for about 10 of those years. I trained well over 100 Window Clerks for several offices within a 75 mile radius.

Window Clerks have to go through 40 hours of classroom training and 40 hours of OTJ training and then have to take a test before they are issued a till and can work a window unobserved. Even then their work is scrutinized continually until it is determined that they are doing things correctly.

I had a backlog of clerks to be trained at times, because I had a reputation for being the best trainer in the area. Many area Postmasters specified that they wanted me to train their clerks. I received 6 letters of commendation and 4 achivement awards for my knowledge and ability. We're not talking slinging burgers at Micky Ds. Window training is intense and not just anyone is capable of being a window clerk. Contrary to popular belief, it is very stressfull and retention of mountains of knowledge are required.

I'm not saying this to blow my own horn, but to assure you that I am not just pulling my knowledge and understanding of the regs. out of my a**.

I am not dictating to anyone. Just my point of view and what I do. If you want to use UPS, FedEX, DHL, or Oggies Dog Sled service, feel free. That is entirely your decision.

Have a good day...

Ron

C&R FFL
 

I think I receintly got a memo from BATFE clearly stating that a C&R license does not allow the holder to engage in the shipping of a covered piece. The memo stated that C&Rs can receive shipments, but not send them as this would be construed to be selling, and therefore dealing. Anyone have a better take on this?

For the record, when I am sending a piece to a gunsmith, I declare it as antique parts.

Case in Point: I am required to have an "Explosives" clearance from ATF to sell or ship Black Powder at the gun shop where I work. I received my clearance yesterday. I just now open the envelope. It belongs to a Ski Patrolman , Joseph Barklay, in Idaho. I wonder where mine is??

Ron

I have to agree with Ron, that the regulations are in disagreement. In one hand they say the word "dealer" and give a definition of dealer. Then in another area state that a dealer is anyone with a federal firearms license.

Further in another area it states a curios gun is an antique ...



So, in the gun collecting fraternitiy there is a huge disagreement on this issue. I would say, if you feel funny, then ship yours Next Day Air.

One thing to keep in mind, there are several types of next day air, one is before 10 AM, one is next day saver, etc., and the price diff is $20-$30...


Ed

Re: C&R FFL
 

Chuck, what does this mean? Are you saying it specifically stated this for USPS or?

Because you HAVE to ship a pistol to another FFL you trade or sell it to upgrade your collection if you are a FFL 03...

You are stating it says a C&R can never ship something? That is against their own rules, it states you can ship an item???

Ed

I don't have my C&R Reference Package handy, but I think if anyone will take the time to research it, they will find that the C&R License allows you to RECEIVE eligible firearms in interstate commerce... I don't think any kind of license is required to SHIP a firearm... the law only states that the receiver be licensed to receive the shipment... ergo, you must be in possession of a valid copy of the RECIEVER's FFL or C&R License before you ship the item...

Case in point... I discover via the internet that one of the folks I regularly correspond with in another state has just inherited a Luger pistol that was brought back from WW2 by his uncle Fred... While he appreciates the gesture of his uncle, his wife refuses to have a firearm in the house. I offer to purchase the C&R Eligible pistol for market value and to not let it out of my sight as long as I am breathing. My correspondent agrees to the exchange of money for the Luger and I send him a wet-signed copy of my C&R License with a bill of sale and check... he then wraps the gun securely and uses an overnight service (of whatever choice) to send me the Luger which I promptly log into my ATFE required C&R collection logbook...

Have any laws been broken? Short answer: NO.

Comments on this fictional transaction are solicited from the peanut gallery Buffalo Bob... :D

yes, it can be a faxed copy, and ergo, I would think a scanned in copy, e-mailed.

As it must be "legible", so to me, a scaned in copy is much more legible than a faxed one and once printed, hard to tell from a faxed one? :)

ed

I dug out the letter from BATFE. It defined "Engage in the business" as buying and selling C&Rs. The term was further defined as "a person or entity that devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principle objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms."

I would read that to mean I can ship a piece to another C&R holder, as long as I don't do it on a regualr (repetitive) basis with the purpose of making a profit.

There is an Authorization clarification near the end of the memo:

"Licensed Collectors are authorized to:

* Acquire curios and relics at any location.

* Dispose of curios and relics to an FFL, or a non-licensee residing in the same State, who is not otherwise prohibited by the CGA, and to an FFL in any state."

Again, I would read this as a C&R is a FFL since they did not clarify as an 01.

My memory was faulty in thinking I could not ship to a C&R. I can ship to another FFL. I can't ship to another state if the person is NOT in posession of an FFL, but they could ship to me if I provide them a copy of my C&R.

Sorry for any confusion I may have caused. The memo is question was dated January 5, 2005.

PS. There was no mention of UPS, USPS, or any other shipping company.