help new gun 3day inspection
 

Well here it is. I am not really happy with the condition of the gun. It is a police rig, holster two schmeisser Haenel mags with matching serials, not sure if it is force matched. Loading tool numbered, some numbers look a bit off. Hoslter Franz Cobau Berlin 1935 numbered, little slot the strap goes through on the outside is missing, pull strap is there. Not all numbers match on the gun. I noticed the safety bar and rear toggle link aren't matching. The firing pin is not numbered not sure if it should be or not.

It is unit marked. S.MaIH.7 that is x;ed out the new mark is S.Wpr.I.390

Price was $1800 I talked him down to $1600

another

a

another

a

1

1

Doug, can I get these hi-resolution from you?

send to : weimar_lugers@comcast.net


I did not realize this was a commerical police. That is fairly rare, and well worth the money even if only ONE mag is original.

I don't like the #1 magazine (one on the right, I was thinking it was the number 2) , nor do I like the front of the frame marking. Can i get straight on shots of them? also, both sides. Although the five font looks good, might be just a double strike...

Is it only crown N proofed on the left?

Condition is not what they promised you is it? Did they say it had bad freckeling?

Ed

What is wrong with the front of frame marking? I talked with Don M and he said the way the marking are with this gun is the onyl one he is aware of, transition from old district to new district.

Per Don

"Assuming the surviving mark is actually S.Wpr.I.390., it represents weapon # 390 of Dienstort (duty location) I of the Schutzpolizei (uniformed municipal police) in the governmental district of West Prussia. This district was all that was left to Germany of the former Prussian province of West Prussia. Following WWI, this remnant was annexed to the Prussian province of East Prussia.

The x'd out mark is more problematical. It may be S.Ma.I.?7. If so, it is an earlier mark from the same unit. For some period immediately following WWI, this same district was known as Marienwerder, its name during the Imperial era. At some point during the Weimar era, it became known by the former province's name."

I will send you some high quality photos, please bear with me I am trying to get the best pics I can

Thanks,

Doug

The serial number / front of the frame, not front of the grip ;)

Ed,

Crown proof on the left, magazine or the frame. On the frame I don't see any proofs, on the barrel extension I see Crown B and U

Doug,

The unit marks are as I guessed, showing the tranisition in the name of this district from its Imperial name of Marienwerder to its later Weimar name of WestpreuÃ??en. It is also very interesting that the earlier mark includes the letter H. This was not a common practice and was contrary to the April 1922 Prussian marking instructions. This may indicate the first mark was applied prior to this date. As I stated earlier, this is the only example that I am aware of showing this transition in the name of this district on a single weapon. This pistol is also one of only a few in my database from this district. I suspect many of these pistols disappeared when the Soviets occupied this part of Prussia which is no longer in Germany.

I consider this to be a very unique example and I would appreciate your permission to publish the photo of the unit mark in a forthcoming article on Schupo unit marks. Realize that this opinion is coming from a police unit mark junky. I am considering renting a hotel elevator for the first international convention of my fellow believers. As to whether this rig would be considered worth $1600 to the collecting community at large, I think you should consider what others may say about the condition of the gun.

Don,

Again thanks for sharing your knowledge with me. I just wish the gun was in better condition. I asked the seller for better pics. He is an older gentleman and has someone else manage his auctions who couldn't get better pics. It sounded great so I bought it. It sounded better than it looks.

Thanks,

Doug

Is this a 1908 model?? 5 diget SN and mismatched numbers, this gun does not give me a $1600 warm feeling.....please contact me if you wish at 760-375-5703 anytime and I can go over this with you....you still got a 3 day inso period....sorry but trying to help

Where in Ca. are you located.??

Howard, the condition bothers me, being a commerical series number makes it rare. HOWEVER, from these pictures I don't like the numers on the front of the frame, it almost appears another number is under it?

PL, why do you say mismatched numbers?


Ed

I said MM numbers because he did in the first thread...I do not like anything about this at $1600 and if he will contact me, perhaps we can work on helping him over the phone rather than typing all this junk back and forth....I hate typing....anyway IS this commerical...not sure of that yet.

Doug,

This frame and upper are not original manufactured mates. The frame serial number overstamps another; the original i suffix is still there.

It will be very difficult, if not impossiblel, to determine the origin of the frame. The small numbered parts do not match its original number, but neither are they edge-numbererd as they would be if they belonged to a P-08 Commercial as suggested by the receiver serial# (lack of edg numbers determined by lightening the fourth picture). This gun's left grip appears to be cut for a magazine safety, it is difficult to tell if there is a filled-in frame panel notch. When you remove the sideplate, is there a hole drilled through the frame behind the trigger; is the bottom inner edge of the trigger plate filed away? This may not be availing, but--what marks are stamped in the lug well?

Does the barrel serial number correspond to the receiver number, is it original or does it appear to be overstamped, are there c/BUG proofs on the barrel?

Are there c/B, c/U stamps on the breechblock? Are the toggle-train parts numbered to the frame or receiver? Are they stamped in the military--visible--style, or hidden commercial style? If they are visible, are there other numbers--the same or different--stamped in the commercial locations? Is the serial number stamped in the bottom surface of the recoil lug? Is the rear toggle pin number-sta

The unnumbered firing pin would not be an impediment with this gun, there could be a couple of legitimate reasons for it. Is it the old-style part, or is it fluted?

With these details yet to confirm, it appears as though this is Luger may have been assembled from parts in an armory and made available for sale to a Police organization. Are there any marks on the right receiver, or any parts stamped with an eagle/HzA?

--Dwight

Dwight
 

Here are some pics It looks like it did have the mag safety

Here are some barrel stampings one set is two eagles one smaller than the other with what looks like a 6 under it, the other stamp I can't make out

eagles

Breech Block
 

breech block

under side of breech block there is a number 6 there

firing pin

underside of barrel

woops previous post was a dup

Doug,

Thanks for the additional pictures. To some up, here is what you have:

The receiver is most likely from a commercial-range Luger numbered 50358, c/BUG proofed. The breechblock and front toggle are most likely mated to the receiver. It is not possible to determine whether it is from a 1906 Commercial or a P-08 Commercial; there are no physical ways to distinguish them and it position in the serial number range is ambiguous. (you have already noted that the rear toggle is mismatched).

The two e/6 stamps on the barrel suggest that this barrel was inspected after manufacture at Simson, and inspected again after its installation into the receiver. The strange-looking stamp on the upper right of the barrel is understandable if you turn it 90 degrees,http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/douglasproof.jpgit is the eagle recorded by Costanzo, #148, p.109. I suggest that his interpretation is in error as the e/6 inspector stamps imply that this barrel is new-maufactured; it is in the position commonly used for power-proof stamps.

The frame is from a post-1914 Luger. Chances are that it is an i suffix Alphabet Commercial, but this is speculation. The takedown lever and trigger plate are from an un-determinable source.

The firing pin is the fluted, Mauser-style, and would have been a replacement after 1934.

I don't have much to say about the magazines; however, under the circumstances, I might be tempted to take them at face value.

So, at some price, this rig of Luger, two likely matching magazines, and holster, with a frankly really neat set of unit marks, is a terrific example of the practices involved in re-arming Weimar Germany. You have already noted its overall condition.

Is this the Luger you want to pay $1,600 for?

Hope this has all been useful.

--Dwight

hmmm, I am unsure, but it could find a spot in my collection, for less... Maybe just not the first nicer one that Doug is looking for...

Ed

Not sure what Ed means, Not sure if I have a nicer spots or not in my collection, but I am sure of eachs pedgree, not sure of this ones, DG...I feel you have not really captured the gun, it is several genaration of re-work with no proof what so ever that it is proper, mismatched and all that it is a period correct gun it is not, I'm sure it is not a $1600 gun, and it seems all at least kind of agree. But there is no way you can call this "a terrific example" of Weimar period correct.....or guys you can back your opinions up with $ as it is still available....I buy each gun in my collection with selling it in mind, this is not a gun your going to easily sell....

True PL, harder to sell. I would feel better about a gun like this for less.


ed

This is a very interesting luger. It has interesting markings etc. But when all the interesting parts are examined as a whole ,is this really anymore than an interesting shooter? Just a question . For the money I would be racing for the return mail. There are lots of better original lugers for the money. IMHO. Bill

Interesting mix of history on the "parts" but IMNSHO... I would have to say "SHOOTER" and not worth the asking price... sorry, but I would have to ask for the money back. Better to lose the money on shipping that to lose half of this gun's value to overpricing...

This frame's serial number was definitely renumbered... you can still see the traces of the old numbers under the new numbers "A"... and the fact that the receiver extends past the frame "B" combined with the uneven and extraordinarilyy harsh line from the front of the frame flat to the curve of the trigger guard "C" (see also the original photo) are all signs of major re-work... the question remains whether or not it was an "official" rework, or just the work of Waffenfabrik USA...

just my $0.02

:rolleyes:

Doug, my gut feeling is that it is a real rework, but like PL and others said, there will always be questions about the piece. Either get it cheaper, keeping in mind that as parts, it is worth more than a shooter, this price incldued two magazines, a tool and holster...

Just as parts, it is worth;

Shooter luger (i wouldn't go that far, but I'm easy) $600-$700
Holster $100-$150
Extra mag nice schmeisers $150
Tool $50-$80

ed

Ed,

I am not going to go to the person I bought it from and negotiate the price. Personally I feel that to be a cheap tactic. I am not saying that in a bad way at all. What I am saying is with this being a site unseen and bad picture auction gun is the best thing is to return it.

I don't want to seem in anyway someone who buys something and gets it then says well it's not what I thought and don't want it but for a better price I might.

I will say I am very unhappy with the item. The pics that were provided were poor at best. I asked for better pics but couldn't get any. The gentleman I bought them from "has someone else post his auctions". Maybe in the future he can get someone who has a decent camera to take pics.

Hopefully everyone understands what I am saying

Kind Regards,

Doug

well, I guess I didn't mean that directly to tell him you wanted money back. I feel it is worth the money, others do not. I guess I meant to say to tell him that you are probably sending it back and tell him why. He might negotiate a different price, he probably won't. I was trying to tell you the total value of the gun. I don't think it is a shooter value, and if it was, then see above amounts, $900 min and $1080 max, thinking of it as a shooter. All depends on how you feel about it.....

I have seen that people who post lousy pictures, sometimes do it on purpose at auction...

Ed



thats all I will say

Ed,

I do and will apreciate your input.

I really expected it to be in alot better condition. Why can't people post decent picture's. I know my pic's aren't the best but I know they are better than the pic's I got.

Before anyone says it maybe that should have been my first clue.

Doug

Doug,

I am no expert, but have done well in most of my firearm transactions by sticking to one ethic: Buy the best you can get for the money you spend. This takes a great deal of time, research and searching, but the results are impressive.

I am not a rich man and I haven't worked in nearly 5 years, so I must be frugal. I most definitely agree that resell has a very strong bearing on my purchase and your gun at its purchase price gives me no "warm feeling" at all. I have purchased far better for less and you should also.

I have returned guns that were described as excellent or xx% that were 00% and have chalked it up to learning which I will continue to do as long as I am breathing. The day I stop learning turn my own gun on me. For some amusing reading of one of my learning experiences, tune to Jan Still's Gunboard and read my thread about my purchase of an Eagle/M shotgun. It will bring a smile to your face. Luckily, I had done enough price research that I am not in to the shotgun over market, I just don't have any interest in it after finding its real identity.

So you have to answer one question: Deal or No Deal. I have to vote for No Deal.

Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ

Jack
 

Jack,

I did as much research as I could without having clear pics. The seller seemed honest and it seemed like a really good deal.

I just talked to him and informed him about three numbers not matching and he seemed suprised and told me he thought he looked it over. He said no problem send it back refund minus shipping from him to me $28.

When all is said and done I will be out $60 to $70.

Doug

Been there many times, tuition at Luger U.

With better pics this wouold have all been avoided. I took the risk because I thought it was worth it.

Maybe they though it was worth it to over rate a gun and send it out and hope the person that got it didn't know any better