Webleys
 

Not long ago, I asked for a .455 Webley for sale here and on a few other sites. Surprisingly to me I got no response here or on Jan's site since I figured someone here would collect such arms.

At any rate I got an offer (I accepted) to sell two from the same guy, one a 90 to 95% gun and the other more "average. This is my first experience with these guns, but the design is so fine I'm shocked they aren't more popular. From the holster guides to the top break with auto ejection, it's a very functional concept.

I've read the old Detonics company had a prototype top break in the works capable of withstanding magnum pressures. I'd like to have had one of those.

I am favourably impressed with the Webley .455 from an engineering standpoint. Maybe because we lived in England for a time and I saw more of them at gunshows. I think they can be reworked to accomodate the .45 ACP with 1/2 moon clips. I can only surmise that their lack of popularity is due to their less than sleek appearance, even compared to the Colt and S&W 1917s, ammo limitations, and American's unfamiliarity with their use and history.

I have a webley in 45 ACP, I purposely bought 45 auto rim and reloaded for it and it shot great.

I really like it, but don't have a non-modified one, or one ofr sale and thus did not comment Rod.

I have seen a couple of sale on assorted places on the web though...

Ed

lundbaek, there is nothing elegant about these, but I honestly don't think they compare too unfavorably to my Smith N frames, except for the finish. They are, as you indicate, engineering marvels.

Ed, I wanted mine uncut if possible. Not because I have anything against the modified ones per se, just that I wanted originals. I love the Auto Rim and my Smith ACP/AR is supremely accurate.

Steve, thanks for the link. That is the most expensive one I've seen. I believe one of those I bought looks better.

I owned a webley in .455 several years ago and thought very highly of it. The only downside is feeding. Ammo was always an issue and when Northridge Arms ran out I sold mine because I couldn't feed it. As recently as last winter I came across a box of .455 at Gunsmoke Arms here in Denver and nearly bought it out of habit. Ed, I believe many of these were brought in by Navy Arms and converted to .45 ACP in the 80's. Several other importers as I recall also converted them to .45 ACP. -- certainly not a bad thing as .455 is almost impossible to find anymore.

I've just bought one blind and I'm waiting to see if it's cut.
Could someone tell me if the original cylinder is rebated for the rim ? I'm assuming the cut for 45acp will be pretty obvious once I get it.

A number of sites list the Fiocchi 455; not cheap but I believe it is available.

Stu

Graf and Sons has a run of the .455 ammo, Hornady auspices, I think, as well as the much more expensive Fiocchi brand. I'm getting ready to prepare an order for some of theirs and components.

I could almost cry when I think of what I could have bought these and Lugers for 30 years ago.

The good ole days aren't always so good. I haven't seen the K31's advertised by our Big 5. I'll have to keep my eyes open.

I saw a Webley in .455 at the Crossroads of the West gun show in Phoenix. The owner told me he paid $1100 for it, and it was far more worn than the one shown above. I realize the dollar has fallen in value to about a tenth of what it was worth 50 years ago, when Webleys first started coming into the country, but I guess if one can find a buyer, most any gun would be one of the best hedges against inflation / dollar devaluation I know of.

Man, some of those prices make my nicer one worth a lot of moolah!

Quick update; got the blind buy and it turns out to be uncut with matching numbers. Very little finish, a patch or two of very very fine pitting and a good bore. It looks as though it hasn't been touched in quite a few years and may clean up nicely. Now to find some 455 !

I hope this will be as much fun to shoot as my mk IV.

The owner of the shop I work in came out of his vault today and handed me a Mark IV ? with 3" barrel. The blue has been stripped and it has been converted to take 45 ACP. Very tight and in good working order. He asked what I thought it was worth. I told him that I didn't know , but would like to have. He said that if we can come together on a price he would sell it to me.

Waiting to see....

Ron

Hi Ron, sounds like a very fun shooter. I wonder how rare the 3" is ? I confess to being a fan of short barrels; no good reason, but in the larger calibers you usally get some pretty impressive burn outside the barrel ;)

Please let me know the outcome of your negatiation and a pic would be great.

Stu

Hi Stu,

I looked at it again today. It's actually a 4" barrel. And it's a Mark 1 or first variation. I didn't get a chance to look at very long yesterday. Kind of blew it all the way around.

The bore shows slight wear , but no frost or pits and rifling is strong, bright and shiney. Left grip has repaired crack through the escutcheon hole.

All blue has been stripped. Looks as if someone was preping it to refinish it and didn't.

Does anyone have any thoughts on a fair value. All things considered?

I don't have any idea of it's value.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/109_0928.jpg


http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/109_0929.jpg



http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/109_0930.jpg



I loaded it with empty .45 auto-rim cases. It functions perfectly.


Ron

Hi Ron. Nice little gun. As to value, tough one, cut for ACP and stripped leaves little collector value, but it looks like a heck of a fun shooter. I'd put $225 on the table tomorrow and would be happy; I also wouldn't be surprised to see it resting on the shelf with $425~ on the tag if the seller was an optimist !

I think it's one of those guns that if you find the one person who really wants it they'll pay some money, otherwise it'll gather dust on the shelf. Please post any updates,

All the best, Stu

Hi Stu,
I only want it for a shooter. It locks up like it was new. I was thinking that I would offer him $275 and go from there. He's out of town until Tuesday, so I'll drop the offer then.

Thanks, I appreciate the ball park estimates. That gives me a starting point.

Ron

I'd pay $275 without blinking, (if I had it ;). Looks to be an excellent shooter, but I'm a sucker for anything a bit different !

Let us know if he goes for it...

Stu

Ron finds all the nice toys. It ain't fair! :)
Good luck on it and be sure to tell us how it shoots.

Stu,
Me too. I love odd and unique guns. This just feels neat in your hand. I am going to start rust bluing. This will be a good one to start with. If it doesn't come out perfect. It will still be a great shooter and about anything would be an improvement.

Since I work for Joe and we are very good friends, I have an unlimited lay-a-way plan. Money's no object, until he wants a payment. :)

Ron

David,

It's because I have dedicated my life to being a "Gun Bum". One of these days I'll be one of those old Geezers with two pounds of greasy dirt ground into their jeans, cigar stained teeth and reeking of stale urine, but "By Gar" I'll have some neat guns to trade for food. :D

Gotta go. My wife wants me to take a shower and change my underwear..... Now where'd I put them cigars??

You sir are one of a kind. Please don't ever change!
BTW I hope to meetup with you when you need some lunch money.;)

Stu wrote: "You sir are one of a kind. Please don't ever change!"

I agree and disagree. Your wife is correct...please change your undies!
:roflmao: You need at least twelve pair, January, February, March....

I think, judging from my 6 inchers, that that 3" barrel would be very good for packing. If the Mark I is like mine, most of the weight would seem to be in the frame and butt, yet the shorter barrel length would seem to make carrying distinctly easier.

Give us a shooting report when you can.

Hey Rod,

Just brought it home. I'll be taking it out this weekend hopefully. Joe just walked up this afternoon and said $250. It's all mine now.

BTW, It has what I think may be a unit mark on it. The top of the grip strap, on the hump it has N with 47 below it. They are about 2.5mm in heigth.

Is this a unit mark of some kind? Hard to tell with the propencity they have for proofs on these things.

Ron

Can anyone tell me if this is a unit mark? If so, a translation?

Thanks! Ron


http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/109_0941.jpg

You lucky dog Ron ! The more I look at it the more I want one ! $250 is pretty darn fair and I want to hear how it shoots.

As to the marking; I have a Webley IV with an RN 43 number, (Royal Navy ?) and the recently purchased VI has FA with three dates, (two crossed out), maybe indicating 'F'ield 'A'moury repair / inspection ?

I've never seen much discussion about the plethora of markings on these English revolvers, I hope someone may shed some light.

Stu

Ron, Can't help with the "unit marks" That sure seems like a valid assumption.

Back to your earlier post about barrel length...it seems the barrels on these are shorter than they actually are to me. Sort of an optical illusion due to the contours of the barrels and the way they extend behind the hinge toward the cylinder.

Rod,

After my original discription, I measured the barrel. It is actually 4" from the cylinder face. It looks shorter.

Ron

Go light on the loads. Lots of little parts in those old guns. I'd use a 180g cast with about 5g unique.

rk

rk, is that really a light load? I wouldn't think so as 5.0 gr. of Unique with a 158 gr. bullet in a .38 Spl. case was stated to be a plus P load a couple of decades ago by some name writers. For example, I've used 4.3 gr. of Unique with a 158 gr. lead bullet in .38 Spl. for about 30 years with fine results.

Since the .38 S&W case is so much shorter and the reduced volume will presumably cause a pressure rise, that is an additional concern, isn't it?

It's generally asserted that the 200 gr. S&W load was going about 600 or so fps. I think. I'd assume that your 180/5.0 load is somewhat hotter. Have you chronographed it?

I'm not trying to be cantankerous, just cautious. :)

rk and Rod,
I am loading 250gr RN FP with 4gr of Bullseye. Pretty close to duplicating the original .455 load. About 725 FPS. Should work out okay...

Ron

Ron, rk, I fixated on the Mark IV designation in Ron's posts and missed that he said it was .455 faced off for .45 ACP/AR. If that is the case and what you were speaking of, rk, I apologize. I thought we were taking about the ".380" British round, what we call the .38 S&W, especially since rk mentioned the 180 gr. bullet.

If we are speaking of the .455, then your 5.0 gr. Unique with the 180 gr. bullet is a light load. I will back off extracting my foot from my mouf.

I was specifically referring to the .45 ACP in a MKVI.


The standard .45 loads are generally too strong for it. Anyway, its better to have your foot in mouth than your head up posterior like I generally have.

rkhttp://www.shutterpoint.com/Images/1x1transp.gif

Geez rk, It must be really hard to shoot like that. :D

Took it out and shot it today. :D

It shoots as good as any .45 cal revolver I have ever shot.(which is quite a few) Unfortunately the already repaired bakelite grips didn't fair well. So out to the work bench for some custom made replacements.

Ron

It looked as though it should. Got some Hornby and Fiocchi 455 fro the MK VI. Detail stripping it now, plenty of brown gunk in it, so hopefully off to the range in the next week or so.

Let's see those grips when your finished; mine have warped over time so it's eyes open for a set of MK VI grips on the auctions.

Hey, Ron, glad to hear the good range report!

If you get great at making replacement Webley grips, let me know, you might have a customer!