Death Head
 

I am very interested in buying a death head luger would anyone know where to find one.

Re: Death Head
 

Welcome to the Luger Forum, Jaime. Good luck... one of our members (Jesse) has been on the hunt for a while now. You do occasionally see them, but they're rare. You might try Ralph Shattuck or Tom Heller (both of which are listed in our LInks and Resources, and both of whom are very reputable. Auctions are another option.


Dok (Webmaster)

Re: Death Head
 

Thanks for your input Dok. In your opinion is there any way, or anyone who distinguish a fake from an original.

Re: Death Head
 

Boy this is a new one for me. What is a Death Head Luger?

TomN

Re: Death Head
 

Tom, check Techincal Information, then Proof 6 section, then proof #68. Found on the chamber usually over the date of 1916-1918 Erfurts and DWM(late War with a few 1911s also) reworked Lugers during the Weimar Era of 1919-1933. Symbol of the early Flame throwers (Stosstrupps) and Friekorps or something like that and other theories. The SS adopted this symbol as well. The Death Head S over the Head is suppose to represent a flame thrower HOSE. Information found in Jan Still's Luger books, quite rare. This variation is one that is faked up a lot I understand for bookuuu bucks. The Late Mel Torme had one in his collection and it was purchased, along with other nice Lugers by Ralph Shattuck! Jesse Burke missed this one by about a day or so if I remember correctly. This variation is hottly debated amongst collectors. Interesting and chilling variation. Any of this I got wrong please correct me, I am learning too! ~Thor~

Re: Death Head
 

Oh yea, also known as the Totenkopf (Death head) Luger! ~Thor~

Re: Death Head
 

Thanks Thor, I will look this one up. I guess this is the stuff that makes the Luger so dam insteresting.To bad so many people are profiting by faking them. It be great if there was some kind of data base that could be formed with known fakes and their serial numbers. I'm sure that more than one person has been burned by the same fake Luger being passed along. TomN

Re: Death Head
 

Hello,

Death Head Lugers are one of the most controversial Lugers around. To the best of my knowledge, no one actually knows what they stand for or even if they are real. All explanations are theory with no actual data to back them up. They are a very sought after Luger, and each collector has to decide if they think they are for real, or just cute. I think the stuff about the SS is total bull-****, but who knows. I have seen a death head with lightning bolts on a byf 41 barrel, which I thought was a fake, but it is in a very large, well known collection. My feelings are that there probably is a few real Death Head Lugers around, but probably more fakes than real ones. My understanding is that these dies have been in Germany for many years and they have been in the United States now for at least 15 years. I would guess that the real Death Heads saw lots of use and action and they should not be in very good condition. A lot of the ones I see for sale are in excellent condition, which makes me wonder. For what it's worth.

Re: Death Head
 

I second Bills assessment on the Death head P.08's....when I started collecting 20 years ago or more...these pistols would surface from time to time. I remember that most of them were described as rough condition, mismatch, and reworked...sometimes crudely! They usually were nothing special as to variation, typical WW1 pistols as I remember....till...later...G.T.

Restored Lugers-Fakes-enhanced conditon
 

In recent years I read frequently the disccusion and bitching about Fakes and Restored lugers being represented as original. Then the advice to buy only from reputable dealer which seems to be synomous with Big well known dealers. After 40 years collecting I am convinced that most of them have sold the afore mentioned merchandise. I think they know it. They may or may not now the origin of the so called enhancment. I'm fairly certain that in some cases they are a party to such work. These so called reputable dealers are like used car salesman---each has his style---but all let you sell yourself. Sure greed allows them to do this--theirs and ours. I believe with out exception; Lugers bought sight unseen can be returned within reasonable time. Those bought in person after our person exam and evaluation are ours to keep or palm off on someone else. All of us and especially the big names with money to travel the major shows; look for the old vet to come in with a rare Luger that we can buy for a song and sell for thousands---and then brag about it. Don't pay attenton to the tag or the ad. Words such as Near mint,Hard to find, Deep eagle are catch phrases just like used cars--sharp! one owner--Low miles! Learn to look past this ask questions of the dealer and yourself. Does the barrel have a hole in it, does it have rifleing in it. is it bright. Numbers match--are they all the same style and appropriate to the model. Ask all the quetions before you order. Ask yourself these same questions when you examine it. Make sure in your own mind that it truely is what it should be not what you want it to be. Don't pay attention to the sales pitch---very few sales people are primarily interested in doing you a favor---they want the $s. Certainly Luger deals between truly close friends[I believe ]are an exception to this. The guys in Auto Mag continually worry about fakes etc and spend a lot of words in writing about the subject. If you don't know what you are buying--don't buy it. My father collected coins. I have some interest. 40 years ago I was in a shop with him looking at a coin with a condition note and price. Dad said "don't pay any attention to the tag indicated conditon, you decide what condition you think it is, then is the price appropriate to your evaluation of condition" I have used this advice in buying Lugers for 40 years. So you bought a fake Death Head--If you only paid a $500 shooter price--what is the problem. I wonder--have I stired up more comment than if I again said stainless steel?

I don't think so
 

I think you made some really good points, similar points in fact to the two posters above you. It always comes down to how much do you know what you are buying? Caveat Emptor is always applicable!

Death Head Luger
 

OK I guess I will come out of the shadows on this one so far on my journey looking for the city of gold (A.K.A the Death Head Luger) I have found 4 death Head Lugers and one Death Head PPK. 2 of the DH's were very questionable and one was not for sale (the same collector had the DH PPK) and one was all most mine but the seller (one of the big Luger Dealer's) first give me the price of $1800 and then when I was going to send the payment the price jumped to $2400 needless to say it went out of my cash limit at the time. I was told I could pay the rest later but I was a bit upset at the price jump and did not get the Luger. If I had it to do over I would have got it but alas my quest continues.

Re: Restored Lugers-Fakes-enhanced conditon
 

Some of the best known dealers have tried to pass off on me restored or refinished Lugers as original when I knew they knew or should have known the status of the piece. Most of the big dealers are collectors as well and generally keep the best for themselves. The problem is that everyone wants mint or close to mint and there are not enough mint guns around to satisfy demand..hence the restorations. I suggest thst an inexperienced collector handle as many Lugers as possible of all vintages paying special attention to guns of KNOWN original provenance so as to develop a feel for what is original. This feel can only be developed by handling numerous examples, so go to every show and handle every Luger in sight. You will start to see similarities in wear patterns on blue and straw colors so you will soon recognixe what is original and what is not. Ask different "experts" about the same gun and compare their

answers. Soon you will know who the bullslingers are and

who can be trusted.


Once when I was examining a prototype, offered to me by a well known dealer, that I suspected was refinished, I compared the frame serial number stampings under strong magnification to the numbers of a know original example and discovered that the subject prototype

numbers had been deepened by an engraving tool and were not stamped as was the original. The numbers had become shallow because of the polishing needed for refinishing. When

spending your hard earned dollars, look very carefully.


Happy hunting,


Bill S. (ALFA2NINE)

Re: Death Head Luger
 

It would be interesting to know who that dealer was... this type on information should be shared for the benefit of all. Feel free to message me offline.


Dok (Webmaster)

Dok! I do not agree!
 

Hi Dok! I do not agree with the posting of any dealers name when it comes from a disgruntled customer.......We are not Luger cops, or watch dogs for justice on this forum...There are many extenuating circumstances when it comes to buying collectibles......I believe that most all dealers will sell you anything you will buy....I have said it several times on this forum, the only guarantee you have for success, is the knowledge that you bring with you to the sale! With out a fair exchange on the matter, irreversible harm can be done to a dealers reputation, only to find out that he was correct later, when nobody cares anymore. I am not in support of fakes or fraud, but also, I'm not in support of lynching! NAPCA seems to be handling the fraud alert quite well, lets stay out of that and keep it simple.....till...later....G.T.

Re: Dok! I do not agree!
 

That seems reasonable to me. I withdraw my earlier statement.

Re: Dok! I do not agree!
 

Hi Dok, GT,

Well, I look at this a little different than you do GT. Everyday on the Forum someone gives out names of dealers who to buy from and represent them as the most honest and honorable gun dealers in the world. If we are going to get the "best guy story", then we should get the "bad guy story" also. When all the smoke is clear, this is all about money and who has the pride and dignity to do the right thing. The guys giving out the "best guy story" have apparently had good dealing, but not everyone has. There are good and bad stories to everyone.

Re: Dok! I do not agree!
 

Hear Hear!


There are two sides to EVERY story, and we NEED to hear them.


DOK:

I would suggest that:

Each Side (That is the INDIVIDUALS involved) in the specific transaction in dispute;

Be allowed to present THEIR sides of the story.

BUT

That other members of the forum NOT be allowed to participate in the discussion ON LINE.


That way everyone in the forum would be allowed to judge the merits of the dispute, and make decisions based on knowledge (as presented by the litigants)

{no-I aint a Lawyer}

WITHOUT

Turning it into a Witch Hunt.


Sorry to have to suggest adding another cross for you to bear in your trials as Webmaster. doc


It ain't easy having to try to be a Solomon.

Re: Dok! I do not agree!
 

We certainly don't need to be a police state here, but bill m and renaissance make valid points, and it was my original thought that we need the good and the bad info, however I'm not clear at this point that the vendor was a vendor supported by this forum (in which case I would have more of a vested interest).


I think this is really up to Jesse, and whether he feels it is information he wishes to share with the group. G. T. may have a point also in that there may well have been a valid reason for the price change that was not illucidated in Jesse's post.


For now I choose to leave it in Jesse's hands to post more info if he chooses to. If he does I will se that that info is disseminated, and if he chooses not to, then that is the end of it.


Dok

Another Opinion
 

Dok,


I still feel like a newbie here and am somewhat reluctant to express an opinion on some things, but this question is not a Luger question; it is a question of allowing members to state their concerns about a product or dealer. As long as these expressions are made in a fair and reasonable manner, the information and resulting comments can be helpful to all forum members.


I also participate in a woodworking forum where both good and bad expeiences with a dealer or product are allowed and names are called. What often happens there is that someone will document a concern regarding a dealer or product and others on the forum will support with similar experiences with that dealer or product. Or, they will sometimes come back with a chorus-like response supporting the product or dealer, leading one to conclude that the original complaint was either incorrect or just a fluke. Allowing free expression about dealers and products has not seemed to have any detrimental effect on the woodworking forum.


Just my $.02, Hope I haven't offended anyone.

Re: Dok! I do not agree!
 

My take--This is a discussion forum on the study, collecting, and whatever else there is on the subject of German Lugers--We have agreed to the ban of the "N" subject and that is fine with me as it is an unresolvable issue. Anything beyond that is uncomfortable to me.


A man is as good as his word-period-bad experiences are as important to us as a group as good ones-another day in the life. I agree that while personal disputes and feuds have little place here, legitimate issues such as fakings or shaftings are fair.


There have been references in the past to this-I remember a family operation refered to as "fakes or us."


Discussions are just that-I object to the idea of "prettying things up" by *****footing around unpleasant issues. Some of the current Luger demigods have been known to engage in less than legitimate transactions and this should not be relegated to the dark.


MikeP

Re: Dok! I do not agree!
 

Hi Bill! I would agree to your thoughts on this issue if the good guy story's and the bad guy story's carried the same weight! But in reality, especially 1n an area as contoversial and diverse as collectable firearms.....they simply do not! A good deal done,is fleeting! Snakebite is forever! It is the same, any time a posse rides, right or wrong, somebody is going to get hung! And more times then not, their innocent! I do not wish to interfere with anyones rights or desire to make his case known, I just feel that problems that arise when buying collectables should be handled and resolved between the two principle parties involved! Whether it be an individual or a dealer! I will NEVER post anyone's name on this forum in an effort to cast a bad light on them or their business! Even if I have to travel to solve the problem, I will! I don't believe the intent of this forum is to debate dirty laundry! Do no harm! those words aren't just limited to the medical profession ....also who is watching the watchers? Till....later....G.T.

Re: Dok! I do not agree!
 

Hi GT,

My whole point here is that some are referring, which is actually advertising, for certain dealers. They give these certain few a big blow-up and it is very good for their business, especially with the newbie's. If these deals are not "such a great deal", then it would be nice if this was shared with up, for us to make up our own minds. This is all about money and selling, and if no one speaks out, then some new collector is going to get hurt. Some of us have some experience and if we get hurt, it is our own fault, but the new collectors need some help. I do not agree with you on working out the problem silently, and then going on as nothing ever happened. I look at this more as this guy is trying to ruin my hobby. One of the guys referred to really tried to take me a few years ago. I called him and visited, asked about the guns he had for sale, and agreed to buy a couple of them. When I received them, they were import marked and dip blue finished. I called and sent them back, and did get my money back, minus shipping. The guy was hoping I didn't know anything about Lugers. Did he represent them honestly? No! He forgot to say they were refinished and import marked, which just happens to be a very important point. When I called him and said they were refinished and import marked, all he said was "I guess I should have mentioned that"! The more these dealers are made to take their stuff back, the better for all of us, as they will start representing their stuff for what it really is. I respect your opinion GT, and you have some very good points, but I do not agree with them completely.

Re: Luger Dealers Reputations
 

I have been lucky! Every Luger deal I have done, I have been happy with in the end! That is not to say I was always happy during the deals, but in the end I was very happy! Look for a dealer with an excellent return policy! If they are willing to take the weapon back with no arguement that is way above what many will do. I would hate to have bought a gun from a guy only to walk back to his place with gun and hand and he throws up his hands and says"All sales final, you bought it, you keep it" That has never happened to me. But I am not naive enough to think it never will. The more I learn, the better I think I will make buying decisions that are increasingly more crucial in our hobby. ~THOR~

Re: Restored Lugers-Fakes-enhanced conditon
 

Bill S, you are saying exactly what G.T. is saying..'Let the buyer beware!'(loose translation, G.T.).. This is good, it is time honored and tested and is the only way to achieve success when making a Luger purchase. Posting the name of 'Good vs. Bad' dealers here would not be of any value to anyone. The deal you describe in detail regarding the refinished Luger is something that the dealer may not even have been aware of. If you were to post his name as a 'badguy' then you would have done him a grave injustice. Even if you later attempted to recant and say that he really isn't a 'badguy' because he did offer you a better deal later on, you couldn't undo the injustice. For all who want to start posting negative feedback I would suggest that you stay with eBay where this is a common practice. All reputable Luger dealers that I would deal with have a cheerful refund policy. Let's keep this forum focused on learning more about Lugers so we can make informed decisions more easily. The smarter we are the less likely we will be to be disappointed. If I ever sell you anything that you aren't happy with let me know and I will take it back in a heartbeat. (Shoot, I have been known to take things back even when people were happy with them).

Re: Dok! I do not agree!
 

Hi Bill! I also see your points, and they are well stated and tactfully presented....although we differ in some aspects, I too, respect your position! Till....later....GT

No, you certainly haven't Luke...
 

and I am not opposed to allowing members to vent their frustration over a given transaction. If I remember a while back Frank Rial revealed that he had been "taken" and shared that info with us.


I think that was valuable and useful information, and served to warn the newbies in the group. I agree with bill m, new users/collectors need all the help they can get, but like G. T. it's not my desire to be the Lone Ranger and to right all wrongs.


I still come back to the position, that if an individual feels he has been wronged, and wants to air that here, I think we should allow that... whether we do anything about it is a whole "nuther" matter...


I myself, had a problem with Marstar a while back, and was unable (due to circumstances) to get my needs met, so I vented on the Forum. To my surprise a number of other members suddenly jumped in with their own stories that were not too dissimilar from mine.


So what appeared to be an isloated incident then looked more like a pattern of behaviour, and I think it is important for people have that info at ther disposal, I certainly would want it, if it was offered.


I don't believe we should do anything above and beyond allowing someone the bandwidth, with the caveat that perhaps if I am recommending this person as a reputable vendor, I (like GT) would definitely want to get to the bottom of it, because I don't want to be recommending someone (in all innocence) if there is a high likeilhood for a problem.


But at the end of day, I still think the onus rests with the member, and whether he feels he wants to share his story.

I don't believe we are talking about...
 

having a GOOD vs BAD list, merely allowing members to post about their experience, and thereby allowing us to draw whatever conclusions we may from that. If that's not what we are about here, then it's I who am confused.

Re: returns no names
 

I have had to return a luger within the last month.


I sent a letter with my funds and license. In the letter, I specified my understanding that the luger was all matching including the magazine.


What I got was a luger with a matching magazine and with the trigger and hold open mismatched.


I returned the pistol for a prompt refund, but am out $50.00 shippings.


Well known dealer. Why should I respect this dealers reputation when he cost me $50.00 to look at at mismatched luger. my 2 cents. David

Re: I don't believe we are talking about...
 

I believe we already have a good/bad list . . . sort of.

Under "Links & Resources" some folks get a little gold star and others get a little yellow triangle.


On the woodworking forum in which I participate, we do not have a good/bad list; but members are free to fully express their opinions about companies, dealers, and products. When I first got into woodworking in a serious way and joined the woodworking forum, I found these comments to be useful; not to be taken as gospel, but helpful pointers relating to the potential location of pitfalls.

Re: Luger Dealers Reputations
 

Ted,

I was thinking that just about the time I found this forum that you were having trouble with a fake police Luger. I remember something about Jan Still verifying the fact that it was not right. Was the pistol ever proved right or wrong, or have I slept too much since that time?

Re: Luger Dealers Reputations
 

The German Connection said it was faked, Jan Still said it was faked based on a Brass rivet pin, Patrick thought some of them MIGHT have been replaced (the sear bar) with a brass in lieu of steel pin. That was enough for me to ask to return the Luger to Ralph Shattuck who I had bought it from. The Brass pin rivet was a new topic as far as I knew and as hard and long as it took me to extract the information, seemed like nobody was absolutely sure of it. I called Ralph Bristling for a fight with him, and AFTER 5 WEEKS after the purchase, he calmly said, "Ted, if you are not 100% happy, you can return it for a full refund, or trade on some other Lugers, no questions asked" I elected to trade this one suspect Luger for two nice Mausers, one a very nice 41 date 42 code (only 7000 made) In the end I was extremely happy with the deal and no questions were asked! You cant ask for a better return policy than that. Since then I have bought 2-3 Lugers from Ralph and have always been thrilled with them! I know some of the veteran posters have already heard this story several times, but since you asked! There you go! I will be buing another collection piece from him and just bought a shooter that is super! I am very pleased with the WOL. Thor

Re: I don't believe we are talking about...
 

Luke, I think it is somewhat different here. Some of our most knowledgeable collectors are also dealers and have had many private dealings with other members on this forum. When members praise an individual for a good deal all is well and the dealer, who is also a collector, contributes his/her knowledge to the group. When things go sour on a private deal and it becomes public then the Scud missiles and hand grenades start to fly. No one wants an environment like that (well, some might). I think we can all agree that this is too valuable a forum to let it degrade over issues that can and should be conducted privately. No one can stop you from saying what you want but it would be a shame to see this forum lose a knowledge base that is immeasurable. Maybe we should all think about nuturing this site and self monitor what we say. Think about the alternative.


"Take me to your Luger!"

WOW!!!!I didn't see this coming!!
 

Well To start off, I did not lose any money just my optimism. I was quoted the $1800 on the phone and by email. But when I called to make the finial arrangements

I was told he would have to ask $2400 because he would have to make something off of the deal, I said I did not have the extra $600 and was told I could put it on layaway. I was discouraged at this point and said Thank You and good-bye. I do give the dealer some credit B/C he did just get the Luger in from and estate collection and it did belong to a very famous person. I just felt I should have not been given a price and then it get changed as it did.


Jesse

Re: I don't believe we are talking about...
 

So many opinions on this subject. I am confused as to who I support. I believe that this forum has a lot of good learning in it. I am not exactly a newbie (9 years as a collector) but I am still learning. I vote that we take the good, the bad and the ugly and discuss them on this forum. Of course, we should try to keep the discussion civilised and not adopt a hostile attitude. The key word here is discuss. This forum is a learning experience for all. Not everybody can contact Jan Still or Ralph Shattuck for their opinion on a gun. People have to learn someplace. The forum fills that slot.


I have done my share of complaining on this forum about dealers and I have complimented some. There is a guy on the forum that I almost had a transaction with, but didn't. I have never mentioned his name and won't. Some people here think he is pretty good. But I don't want to get in a public argument with him over a transaction that didn't occur. But a public discussion over this guys unusual policy would make an interesting discussion on the forum. Note, the key word is "discusion". Maybe, some time in the far future, I will say something in a generic generalized way to hear other members views, but not now. I am keeping in mind a comment by DOK about "vested interest". I respect DOK and don't want to get him in the middle of something.

Big Norm

Re: I don't believe we are talking about...
 

Since there is no governing agency here (and maybe we don't want too much censorship) we should all be doing our level headed best to make this as hospitable and friendly a place as possible. I am being selfish when I say this, but I spend a lot of time here and have tried to maintain a civil attitude towards even the most controversial of my cohorts. I challenge anyone to find a better place to discuss Lugers on the internet. We have the best of the best right here on a regular basis. For the most part, we all treat each other with respect. We all have our 'hot buttons', our pet peeves, our opinions and the values we live by. These are different for everyone here. What makes some happy really rips others apart. I cannot be a spokesperson for anyone here but myself but I sincerely believe that we all need to take responsibility for our words that we post here. Originally, this site did no endorsements of any kind. Hopefully we have not gone so far to make everyone happy that we have turned into a consumer report for Luger deals. People asked for a classified section and we got it. People asked for a resources section and we got it. We have pictures and technical data. We have resident experts on just about every facet of Lugers that exists. Hopefully we can appreciate this special interest website to the point where we rise above smearing anyone over unethical business practices. It has taken a long time for this site to get where it is and it would be a sad commentary if we can't share information here without feeling it's OK to poison the well. For those of you who don't know me, I don't get up on a soapbox unless I feel it is warranted and worthwhile.


"Take me to your Luger!"

Re: I don't believe we are talking about...
 

Bill,

Sure hope that I didn't come across as an advocate of dissention on this forum; and if anyone read it that way, I offer my apology . . . . . and a correction.

To the contrary, I agree with you that this forum is the BEST and extremely helpful to those of us who are on a steep but rapid learning curve, and I would not want ANYTHING to change that.

Luke

WELL WE'VE HAD A GOOD AIRING...
 

of our opinions, and it appears that we have a wide diversity of opinion. I propose we put this matter before the Board of Directors of the Luger Forum who will decide what is in the best interest of the Luger Forum and the membership as a whole.


Dok

Re: I don't believe we are talking about...
 

Bill,


I agree totally with you. I tip my coffee cup to you.

Big Norm

One usually tips one's hat...
 

do you wear a coffee cup on your head?