1900 AE rear dovetailed site
 

C:\Documents and Settings\jack hiles\My Documents\My Pictures\Luger AmEagle\DSC00009.JPGerican Eagle\DSC00010.JPG

Hi All,

This is my first attempt at posting pictures to the Forum. Please accept my apologies if this doesn't work the first time. I really want to share my P-code Krieghoff with you, but thought I would start on something a bit more simple.

The two images I have (hopefully) uploaded are of the rear site of my recently acquired 1900 AE. As you san see, the site has been dovetailed for an element that is parallel to the bore; NOT perpendicular! Has anybody ever encountered this and if so where and when? I have found information that points toward the Swiss utilizing this method of changing sites.

Thanks in advance,
Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ
480 219 6676

Jack, you can upload one at a time, or you can look upper right corner and upload one at a time, copy the url it gives you, paste it into the reply area dn upload a 2nd, 3rd etc,

ed

Sorry Jack,

I have never seen anything like the modification of the rear toggle you have posted. It looks post manufacture to me... There is no way to attach anything to it... do you have a photo of the whole gun? are all the part numbers matching?

John,

All numbers match except the trigger which is a grooved OE thin trigger. The gun is beautiful in all respects. I will upload some more pictures. It has a thin 6" barrel in 7.65. It is very interesting in that the dovetail looks original or at least professional and the front site is missing. I have a front site for it that will need refinishing before installation.

The only other unusual item is the breech block axel which is strawed, not blued and the eagle is polished to a point that it has very little depth.

Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ

John, With the widening and lowering of the rear sight apeture and the missing front sight blade, one would assume that someone with impaired vision was using the front sight base as his sight. TH

Just a thought, there was a few Luger night sights around, had a strange name that escapes me right now, something like a cataract or the like. Could it be for one of those.

Herb,
You are thinking of the Sudicatis night sight. It was a "kit" consisting of a rear and front sight that had radium inserts. It only fit on a LP08 and did not require any modification to the gun.

(Noticed your "survivor" patch. I arrived in Viet Nam during Tet 1967 and left during Tet of 1968. Interesting year.)

I knew it had something to do with a cat. I got to VN June 7 67 and left June 8 68. Was initially assigned to A/1/5/ 1st Cav up in the Bong Son plains area and a few months later went TDY to Phan Rang and trained S Viet forces, the popular forces platoons and Regional Force companies in American weapons and tactics. It was the first phase of the so called 'Americanization' of Vietnam. I was downtown Phan Rang in civvies having lunch with the family of my interpreter at his house when the $hit hit the fan. No weapon in hand and about a mile from the compound, I think I set a new worlds record for completing the mile run. lol.

I was also in VN July 67 to July 68. I was on R and R in Hawaii when Tet started and got back in county during the middle of Tet. It took a few helicopter rides to get back to my unit.

Ron, Richard, and others feel free to take the patch and use it, it'd be neat to see how many will show up here, I stole it off of a Marine site.

Jack, how does this sight compare to a normal one so far as height is concerened? Will you have to modify the height of the front sight?

1900 AE pictures
 

C:\Documents and Settings\jack hiles\My Documents\My Pictures\Luger AC:\Documents and Settings\jack hiles\My Documents\My Pictures\Luger AmC:\Documents and Settings\jack hiles\My Documents\My Pictures\Luger American Eagle\DSC00017.JPGerican Eagle\DSC00012.JPGmerican Eagle\DSC00045.JPGC:\Documents and Settings\jack hiles\My Documents\My Pictures\Luger American Eagle\DSC00041.JPG

Well THAT obviously didn't work. I'll try again to give you some images of my AE. Ithen hope to do a documentary on the magnificent HK P 59 I acquired.

Jack

Jack, there is a tutorial on posting photos in the Site Help and Feedback forum at the top... it was written by Ed Tinker and has walked many a member through the mystery of posting images in their responses... Good Luck.

John,

Had a bit more time today and found JD"s tutorial. i thought I had done the same thing with the previous attempt, but will follow the directions very closely.

As you can see by comparing both images, the space is a classic dovetail that would hold in an element by an interference fit. All I took were images of the dovetail in question. I will now take and submit more images of the entire gun.
A little more information on the gun itself: it is a 1900 AE with all matching except for the previous references. I have received mixed opinions about wether it is refinished. I do know that I think it was refinished and done to a very high degree of expertise. It has only the S/N (9220) over Germany except for the commercial style of serial numbering. It has NO proofmarks on the right side or anywhere at all. It has a 150mm very slim tapered barrel that is totally unmarked, but has witness marks.

Jerry Burney has handled the gun extensively and is a far better reference that myself. I am young to this Luger collecting, but am very devoted to something that I expect will continue my remaining life. I do READ all the books I can get my hands on as opposed to the manley thing of looking only at the pictures (especially the centerfold.)

At any rate, my intent here is to try to piece together to the best of my ability what exactly this gun is or has been in its past. It is far too beautiful to have been a test piece, but could well have had experimenting with the sites as they are both missing on an otherwise pristine gun. I will take some more images and upload them by tomorrow.

Thanks for my rattling on,
Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ
480 219 6676

Top view

Toggle

Lt quarter view

Serial number

Jack, nice photo's...

Herb, Nice patch but I was there for tet 68 and never considered myself to be a survivor. In the 173rd Airborne we were the aggressor. They might be survivors unless we caught em napping. Served in the same area as you...Thanks for your service.

A heads up for those of you who are interested in Krieghoffs. Hopefully Jack Hiles will find the time to present his P series in detail. Many here will be floored by what he shows you....I have never seen anything like it and probably never will again. Jerry Burney

Jack, I stand by my previous opinion, that nothing is intended to be added to sights; just used as is. How is the accuracy at 25 yards, using the base as your front sight? TH

Tom,

An interesting proposition. Under the circumstance, what would be the purpose for it being cut as a dovetail?

--Dwight

Jerry, go back and read my post about using the patch, I said I stole it from a Marine site. Being and aggressor is also dependent upon having a weapon, it sure helps. You've heard about what falls from the sky?

Gee Herb, I guess I missed that joke..being a Paratrooper and all. What falls from the sky?
What were you doing in RVN without a weapon? Only people without a weapon in the 173rd were the donut dollies. Jerry Burney

Tom, I am not intending to shoot this AE. I have heard that the main springs are next to impossible to acquire. Is that correct? It is also such a fine example, I would hate to break a matching part.


Jerry, thanks for the compliments on my photos. Attempting to shoot fine detail on a small stationary object is quite different from all my photographic experience which is F-1 or CART racecars at full speed. Also thanks for the compliments on my HK.

My body finally succumbed to the flu after 6 days of Barrett-Jackson and the Copper Classic last week end. I am now getting energy back and hope to submit single images of the remainder of the AE and try to do a pictorial of the HK this weekend.

Thanks,
Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ
480 219 6676

I wonder if the pistol shot low and some tinkeread like me cut that dovetail and fit in a higher sightblade to raise impact,the only thing is from what I can see nothing has ever mared the finish to show a sight fitted to the dovetail which leads me to also believe it was a mankillin sight for a half blind person like me,I like big ol rear sight cuts. It really is a great looking piece. clint

Jack, Is the cut on your rear link tapered, so that it would hold an insert? To me the photo appears that he just slotted the rear link low enough that he could use the wider front sight base as the front sight, and still be on target. TH

Tom,
I have a high resolution graphics monitor, so I can see quite clearly that the slot is a dovetail. It looks like it was cut for an insert.

Ron, doesn't it appear also that the slot slants downward to the front? This would allow for an insert to provide for some elevation adjustment as well... The insert could have been held in place by a small setscrew... kind of a novel modification IMHO...

Actually John, it appears to me that the slot may have a slight slant upward to the front. So regardless of the direction of the slant, it could have some adjustment for elevation, albeit not much. I would be more inclined to think that the slot was cut deeper to the rear to provide bit more "beef" to strengthen the cut, and windage/elevation adjustment (if any) would be incorporated in the sight insert. Nothing like taking a few WAGs when all else fails!;)

I'd love to shoot a Luger modified like this with a bead front sight and a small peep at the back...

--Dwight

Yes all, it is a definite dovetail with a slope slightly upward toward the front. It most obviously was made for an element which A friend and I are going to make in at least 2 forms: one a ghost fiqure (peep sight) and second a traditional "v" notch that can be drifted. These projects are going to take a while so be patient with me and I hope to show all the final results.

I appreciate your input and any suggestions. I still hope to try to track down some historical provenance to this site. The workmanship and finishing is of the highest calibre; MUCH better than any refinishing work i have seen. It is done to the level that one would say it is factory.

Thanks,
Jack

I've been reading this thread with interest and have some observations: There does not appear to be any evidence, such as wear marks or scratches, that the dovetail was used. A dovetail in line with the action of the toggle seems like an inherently bad idea since backward/forward and centrifical force of recoil would tend to work loose any insert. The theory about an inserted sight to raise point of impact does not make sense to me because lugers naturally shoot high at normal ranges and filing down the front sight would be a much easier solution. In the end I have to side with Tom's theory that the cut was intended as a rear sighting groove for use without a front sight blade (as you state, the front blade is missing). Why a dovetail? I don't know. KFS

By the way Jack, it is probably not wise to shoot such a nice matching example. I have a mismatched AE that is my favorite shooter, and yes, if anything breaks I'm screwed. KFS

Karl,

I have no plans on shooting it. I would like to make an element for the rear site. I have a front site for it, but if the rear site stays as is, so be it.

Your observations and the observations of everyone else are very interesting. The question of a dovetail running parallel to the bore center on a Luger is mute as the force of recoil is taken up in the toggle action of the gun. If the gun didn't toggle, the recoil force would be expelled directly into the site.

You are very correct about the lack of any marks indicating an element had been installed. It is as clean as the photos indicate.

I really think I was blessed with the finding of a nearly matched 1900 AE to add to my collection. The site issue gives it some kind of mystery and history to always investigate. I really never thought I would be able to find a 1900 AE, but was glad to pick this one up.

Ironically, I never mentioned the pencil thin 150mm 7.65 barrel. It is just one of the most striking firearms I have ever seen, despite its site issues.

Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ

Jack, I recall our discussion about this gun being refinished. It is entirely possible--if not likely--that the rear sight intended for it was fabricated and installed, perhaps even tested; and then removed for the refinish and simply never reinstalled.

Do I recall correctly that the front sight is a bead? If so, its removal before rework might support this hypothesis. I wonder if the rear sight was simply lost during the process??

I hope you are going to show us pictures of the entire gun... :)

--Dwight

Jack,

Is there a chance of seeing three more photos :

1. View of entire gun barrel... a 6" barrel on an M1900 AE is not usual.

2. Detailed photo of the barrel/receiver witness marks.

3. Detailed photo of the polished area underneath the thumb safety lever.

By the looks of it, I would vote for this luger being professionally (possibly recently) redone...but more photos would cetainly help.

The lack of depth of the AE chamber stamping is one "red flag"...

AZ state certainly has it share of boosted lugers showing up...:(

Dwight and Pete,

Now that I have this photo posting gig down, you're going to have to tie me down to keep me from posting photos.

It is too late tonight to take the photos you ask to see, but i will be glad to post them tomorrow.

The depth of the AE certainly shows an exuberant polisher. The gun didn't come from Arizona, but I am in total agreement with your statement about boosted AZ guns. I'll get all the images you want and we can all make some more WAGs about this piece. I love having guns that keep you thinking and studying.

This gun came from a source totally removed from our normal sources. you might say they were in a class by themselves: Class 3!!! Had it not been for the lovely Japanese woman behind the counter, I wouldn't have even stopped to look at the firearms they had up for sale, and wouldn't have seen this gem.

Until tomorrow,
Jack

BTW, before I forget. I feel certain that the gun has been refinished at some point, but NOT recently. There is too much grip wear for a recent job. Also the gun has a very interesting difference at the extreme bottom of the rear strap. A hole was at one time drilled and then professionally refilled. I am NOT removing the filler, but was told by a trusty collector that I will probably find the hole threaded to install a stock sine 1900s had no stock lug. Just another curve to throw into the blend. Great piece to get those WAGs going.

Jack