1941 byf Questions
 

Gentlemen, I am considering adding a 1941 byf to my collection. It is in 85-90%, all matching metal, great bore and matching magazine. The gun is nice, but the grips are not numbered. Should they be numbered for this pistol? How do the unmarked grips effect the price? What would be a fair price on this pistol as I have described it?

Thanks in advance guys. I am looking forward to my next Luger.

you must be in the military, as you don't have a first name~! ;)

From the FAQ on this forum, although for a byf42, I am sure a byf 41 would be the same. Frank will correct me if I am wrong;

Ed

So I take it the grips are old replacements?

I want a complete matching gun. This is as close as I have seen in some time. Could it have been issued without stamped grips?

Ed, the basic information is correct, except the Waffenamt Marks would be either E/655 or E/135. Of course, the Black Bakelite Grips are not numbered.

Capt. Emo, since you say the magazine matches the pistol, I'm guessing the grips are wooden. That being the case, they should have the last two digits of the serial number stamped on the inside surface. If they are armourer replacements they should have E/655 or E/135 stamped on the inside surface.

If the wooden grips are not numbered or Waffenamt Marked, they are most likely post war replacements.

You must decide the value of the pistol. If the grips are "new" looking, they don't belong with an 85% pistol. If they appear to have the same wear as the pistol, then the lack of the grip number will be somewhat compensated by the fact the magazine is matching. The value is certainly greater than a "shooter", but less than a "collector".

Good Luck!!

I am looking at them again today. I will cloesely examine the grips. I recall no markings, but could be wrong. They are wood.

The magazine has an aluminum base marked to the pistol.

Assuming that they are agred post-war replacements, would $700-$800 be too much for this pistol?

I think the value is low. A 85% pistol with non-matching grips, well, I simply wouldn't call it a shooter, a low-end collectable, maybe, but not a shooter class.

Even then, replacement e/655 grips are not that hard to find, so your value would go back up if found.

But, if looking for a rightous, all matching, then expect to pay $1200-$1500 for a nice nazi era luger. Get a mostly completed rig, with holster and tool, maybe not matching, but complete...

Ed

Ed:

The seller also has a 1937 S/42 in similar condition with a holster and tool. The magazine does not match on that one.

So, am I better off with a non-matching magazine or non-matching grips? I can probably locate the grips faster than the correct magazine!

Thanks so much for your advice. I promised myself a "collector" Luger this time, not a shooter.

Eric

hmmm, a non matching magazine is more acceptable than non-matching grips, so thus more "common".

I would go for the non matching grips, provided the magazine looks original and "good"...

Other guys opinions?

Ed

Ed, right on with respect to the magazine vs. grips. I'll take the matching magazine every time. Just make sure it's a REAL match.

Depending on the serial number the magazine should be either a 122 or fxo with E/37 Waffenamt Marks. The bottom should just give you the serial number, including the proper suffix and a "+" sign if it is a spare.

I think $1200 to $1500 is way too high for a 85% semi-collectable. Less tha $1000 would be my guess!!

No one in this discussion has yet advised you to be cautious about the matching magazine. Always be suspicious of a matching magazine, these have been ground and re-stamped for decades. If you do not know how to positively identify one yourself, show it to a collector who can before you put your money down.

I suggest that it will be just as difficult to find replacement e/655 grips as it would a true matching magazine. If you do find them, they will not come cheap.

You note that you have been offered a comparable S/42 with holster. You don't say, but I presume the cost is comparable. I won't presume to tell you how you should advance your collection, but I will suggest that you ask yourself, whether you will be happier with a Luger you can confidently present as authentic, or one with which you will be engaged in a long (and possibly fruitless) search for the parts to "make it right"?

--Dwight

Points well taken. Perhaps I should pass on both until the right one comes my way.

Dwight, what the hell do you think I was doing when I outlined what I thought was a matching magazine???????

Next, I see E/655 grips on various occasions on Ebay, expensive, yes, but possible.

Let's get together on this one so Eric doesn't get taken!!!

Those numbers and WAa's on wooden grips are sometimes pretty hard to see. Turn the grip to various angles so the light hits it from different ways, when I say hard to see I mean HARD to see.

Maybe not to the detail you wanted Dwight, but I said be careful and so did Frank
:rolleyes:

Well, I am fairly good at playing the Antiques Roadshow :p but sometimes go a bit higher than I should :roflmao: ;

Simpsons LTD:
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/mo...uns.htm#Lugers
However, in my quote, I should have said; a 85% would go for lower, a 90% more, a 95% a lot more...
but that is why I said :D


Ed

ALL MATCHING?? The correct magazine for those byf's also included a non-numbered FXO aluminum or a black phonelic base mag. Are these models included in the ALL MATCHING category?

rightous ;) meaning, research it, find out what is correct and what isn't.

Many times H.P. marked lugers are sold as "ruined" because their stock lug is cut off. But this "variation" comes that way.


Ed

Herb,

A good point, and thanks for bringing it up. I checked Still Axis Pistols p.125, according to this source the earliest byf 41 were issued with 122-marked extruded magazines, aluminum base serial-numbered to the gun. byf 41 were "generally" issued with fxo-marked mags, aluminum base serial-numbered; byf 42 were "generally" issued with the black plastic, unmarked base.

Still also notes the existence of these extruded mags with aluminum bases and only 42, S/42, or WaffenAmt eagle acceptance marks; he identifies these as arsenal replacement magazines.

In my conservative opinion the black plastic on a byf 42, or replacement-marked mags on byf 41 and 42, are 'authentic'; anything else either matches or doesn't.

--Dwight

This particular pistol has a numbered aluminum based magazine. I am putting the seller off until Friday morning.

The reason I brought it up is that I have an all original matching byf 42 which was a vet bring back and included a very nice brown 1939 Carl Ackva holster and a near mint FXO aluminum base completely un-marked, magazine. The grips have the last two digits of the serial # plus the E/135 acceptance stamp. I would rate the finish at about 95% or better. I see no reason, other than loss of the original, for it to have a replacement magazine. Now for the S/42 magazine, I have one of those too, the condition is very good, no serial number, but it is of the sheet metal formed type, not an FXO. It also has the DWE 63 stamp of Mauser.

Lot's of good dialogue here, so I'll put in my 2 cents worth. I believe the matching magazine aspect much more valuable than matching grips, as I've never been able to come up a matching mag among the dozen or so I've on the lookout for the last 10 years.. On the other side of the coin I've purchased very nice E655 proofed grips from Tom Heller and Leon De Spain in the last year or so with out breaking the bank. Also, about 3 weeks ago I picked up a 80-85% blue byf 41 in the "q" block that is all matching with a matching magazine. It had black grips, that are not repros, but according to Frank Manders not correct for the "q" block, so I replaced them with E655 proofed wood grips. I paid a little over $800 for the byf, if that helps Captain Emo guage the market any better.

Lyn

I heartily agree with that. I have all but the last magazine list from Don Hallock with over 4,000 listed mags available, and not a single one that I need.

So, unless I get this one for a bargain price (which I likely won't) then I pass?

I will pull the grips and pray that I see some sort of markings.

Herb, I think that most of the byf Lugers beyond the U, V & W Suffix were shipped with either non-numbered aluminum or plastic bottom fxo magazines. While these are not matching (no numbers) they are certainly "proper" and legit magazines for late byf 41 and all byf 42 Lugers. I have seen a small number of numbered plastic bottom fxo magazines, but I've never seen one with a suffix. They could be Police Magazines or just a No Suffix Type :confused:

Ed, regarding prices; I know that there are some dealers that are charging big bucks for their Lugers, but to say these are going prices might be a stretch. Over the past few months, I have purchased a 98% byf 41 and a 95% 1937, strawed small parts, Mauser Hump for MUCH less than the dealer prices. I have also sold a pretty nice early 1936 for MUCH less than dealer prices. So if you keep your eyes open, the decent prices are still out there. If you in a hurry, then you'll have to pay the BIG BUCKS!!!! :mad:

Gentlemen, I am visiting the seller this morning. I will bring a camera. I will post pics of both guns. I figure he will ask somewhere around $900-$1100 for the byf and $1200-$1600 for the 1937 S/42 with holster.

I appreciate all of the information. I have save my funds for a good Luger, and a good Luger is what I want.

Speaking of prices, I am hesitant to use online prices. Here in the midwest, the sellers that ask online prices usually have their guns for several shows.

Emo, good luck in your quest. :)

I got some pictures and more details. I will post them shortly.

I looked at them today. He is taking them to a show in the morning.

The byf grips are not correct. The mag is a milled wAA37. What do you think?

and

and . . .

That is the byf.

The S/42 is the plum finish that I do not like. It is all matching but for the mag and there is a holster.

and . ..

the plum . . .

Any thoughts on the grips? I was going to meet him at the show.

I went to the show and met him. He still had both Lugers. I left without making him an offer. I did explain that I was interested in making him an offer. I will offer $850 and see what happens.

Emo,
What is the seller asking for the 1937?? If you're not interested in the 1937, I would like to talk to the seller. Can you PM me a contact number?
Thx, Lyn

He wanted $1650 for the pistol, magazine and holster. Still interested?