Single shot .22 Luger
 

Hello everyone. I'm hoping someone can provide some information on a Luger that was shown to me and owned by a neighbor. It is a single shot .22, 4" barrel, blue, appears to have some age behind it, and with a solid frame except for the void between the grip panels. The bottom of the grip frame and receiver is solid with no provision for a magazine. To load, the toggle is retracted and a cartridge is then placed in the chamber. It is then cocked by placing/resetting the toggle back in battery position. There are absolutely no external makings on this pistol. There is a number "4" stamped on the underside of the toggle. This pistol is definitely not one of the Stoegers, Ermas or one of the John Martz conversions described in the Blue Book. At first glance it appears to be a standard 9mm Luger. I'm not able to post a picture but will be glad to answer any questions should someone have an idea what my neighbor has. Thank you in advance.

Ralph, welcome to the forum.

No markings, proofs or other accetpance markings on it? That is odd, but makes me think it is more a gunsmith dream? As an example, Mike has a 38 special luger look-alike that is completly hand built.

First guess is that it is a rework or simply something to resemble a Luger. Wyatt made a 45 acp, I think it was a single shot, same kind of conversion I would guess, maybe, maybe not based on a actual luger.

Pictures are needed to make a better guess.

Ed

Hi Ralph,
As Ed said, welcome to the forum. Sounds like your neighbor may have a Glaser-Francotte training pistol made in Belgium in the 1920s. Is the bottom of the grip frame quite rounded and is there a latch in the left toggle knob? If your neighbor is interested in selling, I am interested in buying. You can send me an email to rwood1@elp.rr.com
Regards,
Ron

Hello Ed & Ron, Thanks for your input. I'm going to do my best to get a pic posted but I believe it's going to take some time. This thing is definitely not a look-alike or a rework but I'm going to have to get a better look at it for you. Ron, the bottom of the grip frame has the same general contour of a normal luger with the magazine in place. In fact, when I first saw and handled it, I couldn't figure out what happened to the magazine and why I couldn't remove it (there is none). I should say at this point that although I do own a parts luger, I am by no means real knowledgeable or an expert on them. I don't know if the left toggle has a latch but I do believe the toggle "buttons" on each side turn/spin. I don't believe the owner is considering selling it and I know he doesn't know anything about it but he believes it is extremely valuable. I don't doubt that it has some value but I don't subscribe the the extreme value theory. Keep in touch and I'll try to do the same. Thank you.

The Francotte Single Shot
 

Welcome to the Lugerforum...Is this what the pistol looks like?

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...ningPistol.jpg

Thanks John. I tried to find a picture of a Glaser-Frankotte, but couldn't. I am glad you dug one up. I notice there is a latch in the right toggle knob too. I couldn't remember.

If that is not what the neighbor's gun is, I am stumped and will need to see pictures to take another stab at it.

I just did a search on Francotte here on the forum and found that there was one thread where the photos had not "expired"... I would be willing to wager that this IS what the neighbor has... and serial number 4 to boot. I can't wait to see the photos...

Do you, or does anyone else know how many of these guns are still known to exist? I can think of three sets of photos I have seen... but with my old computer (between my ears) that may just be a dream... I do remember that the one pictured above was sold by the Hermann-Historica auction house in Germany a couple of years ago

Hey guys, First off I want to thank everyone for welcoming me to the forum which seems to be a very friendly place that I could quickly learn to like. The Glaser-Francotte pictured above is nowhere near what my neighbor has. If I were to place my neighbor's luger in your hand, you would think it was "normal" at first glance until you tried to remove the magazine which is the first thing I do when someone tries to hand me an autoloader without the action open and magazine out. When I reached for the mag and the mag release button I discovered there was none, only a solid frame bottom shaped somewhat like what a luger grip frame looks like with the mag in place. I should mention that, according to the owner, he received it sans grips which he then replaced with ones he made out of a phenolic material, quite nicely I might add. Also, on the left side of the receiver behind the chamber area someone attached a personalized nameplate (name presently unavailable). Additionally, there is no disassembly toggle on the left side, no mag release button, no safety lever and no rear lanyard loop. Mr. Sabato, please don't place that wager. This is getting very interesting and intrigueing for this tired/retired detective. Stay tuned.

Okay Ralph... if it is not a Francotte training pistol, I think we have to gently insist that you approach your neighbor and tell him/her what a mystery the description of his pistol has created in the Luger collector's world and request that photos be taken to identify this interesting specimen... He can remain anonymous of course if he so desires, but for a good identification we need clear focus closeups of both sides, the top, bottom, and the front of the frame over the trigger guard...

I still can't wait to see the photos.

I hope to catch up with my neighbor sometime this afternoon and take some pics of his prize. My next dilemna will be trying to post the pics here. Wish me luck.

There is a photo upload tutorial that is easy to follow at the top of the Site Help and Feedback Forum... you should have little trouble posting photos, but if you do, just shout here... we will be glad to provide assistance.

Gentlemen, This evening I was successful in catching up with my neighbor who allowed me to photograph his pistol. I will be posting six pics for your perusal sometime late this evening or sometime tomorrow (hopefully). As I have dial-up it is going to take me a bit of time so please bear with me. Also be advised that I'm not much of a photographer but I try. At this time I would like to correct some info I gave you and provide some additional info. I mentioned that the number 4 appeared under the toggle but in actuality it is the number 1 which also appears on the breech face. I hope this shows up in the photo. The nameplate on the left side of the receiver is engraved "A. Montgomery" and under that is ".22 Cal." & "V 55" or possibly "V 155". The 1 between the V and the 55 is possibly a scratch. Also on the left side of the receiver above the grip panel is a serrated sliding button which we believe to be a safety. I cannot thank you gentlemen enough for assisiting me in trying to identify this pistol as I really appreciate it. As I said earlier, please bear with me while waiting for the photos to be posted. Kindest regards.

Need some help fellas. I've got the pics saved in "my pictures" and uploaded to photobucket but when I try to upload them here I get an "upload error" that says "maximum file size exceeded, file may be no larger than 200KB (200000 bytes)". If you may know what the problem is and can explain it to me, make sure that you explain it as if I was reading Uploading for Dummies. Thanks.

And the anticipation grows...........

Stay tuned !


Jim

Ed, By now you should have received all six pics. Sorry that it took me so long to get them to you but with my dial-up I can only send one at a time. Once they are all posted I'll be very interested in everyone's comments. Now it's time for me to be patient. I will have to leave here for a while but will return later this afternoon or this evening. Thanks again to everyone for everything.

extra pictures:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ger_toggle.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...r_stripped.jpg

I want to be the first to say I DUNNO

Velly intelestinck!

A real puzzler. R. Alexander Montgomery is/was a noted collector, but I doubt that this piece can be attributed to him since it is marked "A. Montgomery". If it was his or he had anything to do with it, the marking would most likely be at least "R.A. Montgomery".
The frame appears to be steel...is it? The function of the two buttons is not clear. The rectangular sliding button could be a safety or a toggle lock. The round checkered button under the chamber area looks out of place to be a cross-bolt safety, so I have no idea what it is for.
It appears to by quite well made, but for the moment I haven't any clue as to its origin. Time to dig out the books!
My interest in buying still remains, although not as keen as it would have been if the gun was a Glaser-Frankotte.

I am also intrigued... I have studied Lugers for about 45 years and have never seen anything like this... it is obviously a Luger Look-alike, and not a Luger.

Ron,

The nameplate is obviously a post-manufacture addition...

I would be very interested to know if the frame is ferrous material (Steel) or non-ferrous (aluminum or some other such lightweight material)... since the frame obviously suffers little stress in firing since there is no movement. The frame appears to be cast to me...at least in these photos.

I believe the two pins (one through the frame ears, and one just above where the takedown lever normally is) are used for two functions. Both pins appear hold the toggle action to the lower frame, and the rear pin also functions as the pivot for the rear of the toggle. I concur that the slide mechanism must be a safety device, and would presume that the sear appears on the bottom of the breechblock since there is no magazine to contend with...

Looking forward for anything that anyone might be able to document about this very unusual gun...

P.S. Could this possibly be an antique "toy" cap gun that has been cleverly adapted to fire single shot .22 LR ????

What does the rear view of the gun look like behind the toggle?

I can also see (after several minutes of studying the photos) that there are two screws holding the top on... one in the grip area under the toggle, and one on the bottom of the frame in front of the trigger guard...

New one on me as well

The only reference I can find on a luger look alike 22 other than Erma is a spanish ECHAVE y ARIZMENDI. They made one called Lur Panzer,but it had a mag. Hope someone can identify this critter.

Ron, What appears to be a cross bolt safety at the front of the frame where the take down pin would normally be is an immovable pin. I believe it is used to secure the barrel in the receiver besides being screwed in if it is. When I say immovable, I mean immovable by normal finger pressure. I'm sure it could be drifted out with force. Ron & John, The entire pistol is steel consisting of three main parts except for the movable parts; the barrel, the receiver and the grip frame. John, I'm not sure what you might be looking at when you say you observe two screws holding the top on. Everything on the pistol (frame) appears to be pins and no screws. Here's hoping I've added additional useful info and I'll sit back and observe for a bit. Let me know if you may want to speak to the owner personally and if he's receptive, I'll provide his phone number. Best regards.

Ralph,
After studying the pictures, I suspect that what appears to be a cross bolt safety (immovable pin) is secured by the screw in front of the trigger guard (somewhat like the screw that secures the base pin on a first generation Colt single-action). I think that you are correct that it secures the barrel to the receiver. Please do not attempt to drift it out with force! I also do not see the second screw in the grip area under the toggle that John observes. I do wish to speak to the owner if he is receptive. You can provide his phone number in confidence to me at rwood1@elp.rr.com
Thanks,
Ron

Maybe one of these modified by a gun smith...???

This one is for sale on Bob Adams' web site...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/spanish.jpg

That is the Lur Panzer that Bill Lyon made reference to. It has a magazine so it would not have the solid frame of our mystery .22 - too many differences to be a candidate for a gunsmith modification. Also, I believe the Lur is an alloy frame.

Maybe it is an optical illusion, but I believe that I see a hole at the point in the frame between the grips that would likely contain a screw (lower arrow). and the upper arrow is pointing at the toggle knob, where a close examination shows that the toggle knobs are apparently held on with an allen head bolt/screw of some type...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/second_screw.jpg

We are no closer to identification than when we started folks... all we can say is that we know what it is not... the mystery continues... Most fun I have had on the forum lately... with over 3500 members world-wide, you would think that one of us had seen a specimen like this before!

My next guess? ...perhaps a converted blank or starter gun?

John,
I missed that screw at the rear of the frame. When you mentioned that second screw under the toggle, I looked inside the frame...duh. The allen bolts are quite apparent and Ralph mentioned that the knobs turn/spin.

It is quite a mystery. I even looked to see if it might have some kinship to my Schimel CO2 pistol, but no luck there either.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/schimel.jpg

John, I now understand what you meant by the screw at the rear of the receiver/frame and I believe that is what attaches the grip frame to the receiver. Ron is correct in stating that I mentioned that the toggle knobs are free spinning. I'll have to get another look at it and maybe another couple of pics in an effort to determine if allen head screws do secure the toggle knobs. I also want to inspect the bore and then ask the owner if he's receptive to phone calls. In the meantime, ask away if you have any questions you would like me to pose to the owner. I would like to take this opportunity to say that I'm very glad I could bring this much fun and investigative enjoyment to the forum members.

Hello,

this being my first post to the forum first of all I�´d like to greet and thank everyone taking part on such an interesting and informative projekt I�´ve found nothing to compare to on the www.

But back on topic right now:

What makes me curious about that gun are the toggle knobs.
They look pretty much like the knobs used on rifle scopes to me.
So the opinion stated in one of the first posts that the gun might be a unique "gun-smiths dream" or so could be the place to start from.

On the other hand the numbering ("1") of certain parts on that gun might also lead to a prototype - but that is more guessed than anything.

Third possibility - explaining the Nameplate - would be that this gun is what we call in Germany a "Meisterst�¼ck" wich ist a piece of work an apprentice has to manufacture to show his skills and finally be allowed to lead his own business.

So much from my side - very vague - I know...

Regards,

Christoph

P.S.: My english might be a bit rusty so correct me if you have to - I guess I can take it ;)

Christoph, your english is much better than my deutch! :)

Welcome to the forum!

eD

I remember seeing single shot Luger-style pistols for sale in France. Apparantly the rules governing a single shot 0.22 pistol with a barrel of a certain length are less rigorous than those for a shorter barrel.

A couple of more pictures Ralph sent;

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/22_luger_b.jpg


http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/22_luger_c.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/22_luger_d.jpg


http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/22_luger_e.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/22_luger_f.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/22_luger_g.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/22_luger_h.jpg

Large image:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...er_i_large.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/22_luger_i.jpg

Wow Ed, You did a great job posting my pics and it looks like I'm getting better at taking them. Additional info I noted this afternoon; In pics #1 & #4 above, note the only two frame screws - one in the front of the trigger guard and one in the rear at the top of the grip frame - these two secure the grip frame to the receiver. The receiver has no screws in it and has pins only for the trigger, the rear of the toggle and the one under the chamber area which we believe to secure the barrel to the receiver. In pic #6 above I tried to show the number "1" at the bottom of the breech face but it does not show well. Pic #7 clearly shows the number "1" under the toggle. I noted that the toggle knobs rotate both at once in either direction by turning one, or they can turn independently or even opposite each other if you try to move them seperately. I hope I explained this properly. The clearance tolerance between the two toggle knobs and the cap screws in the center of them is incredible, it's that close. I also noted that the bore seems to exhibit 8 or 9 lands and grooves but we didn't have the proper things at our disposal in order to accurately determine the number. If i'm not mistaken, it has a left hand twist but I can't remember. Again, a big thanks to Ed who did a fantastic uploading job and even rotated the pics for better viewing. I sure hope more folks chime in with ideas or info now.

I forgot to ask - if anyone might have an idea of the value of my mismatch Luger which is in good to very good condition with P08 stamped on the side of the receiver, 1938 on top of the receiver in the chamber area and S/42 on the top of the toggle, I'd appreciate an educated round-about guess. Thanks

a mismatch goes from $400-$700, depening on year, how bad mismatched, etc.

$600 is a going rate right now...


ed

In Walters The Luger Story is a picture of a Tucker Luger, made in the 1960's. The picture shows what looks like a prototype, but maybe the finished or 22 long rifle was this one (bottom picture)?

Ed

To compare toggle open;
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...r_stripped.jpg

The more I see of this gun, the more intrigued I am with it's construction. If you and your neighbor ever get daring enough to separate the grip from the upper assembly, I would love to see detail photographs of the toggle and upper assembly parts... I hope that we soon solve this mystery... This is obviously not a handmade unique firearm. I believe it may be a production prototype. Has your neighbor ever fired the gun? Does it function the toggle to eject the cartridge case? or does it remail locked until you manually open the toggle and then eject the case?

John,
Although it can't be determined for certain because of the slight angle of the photo rather than straight on, it does appear that the gun is a locked breech standard toggle configuration that must be manually operated. The forward toggle link to breech block pivot point appears to lie above the line of the rear toggle link pivots. Since the receiver is fixed, there is no "breaking" of the toggle knobs on the receiver ramps during recoil to unlock the action.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/toggle_angles.jpg

Any speculations about the purpose of the screw in front of the rear sight? To remove the toggling action?

It looks like someone went to a lot of trouble to make a pistol no one recognizes. I have a hard time believing someone would think this gun would be attractive to the masses, being a single shot. It is attractive to me, both in the sense of being pleasing to the eye and that I'd like to own it, but part of that is its apparent one-of-a-kind status.