new member - first Luger!
 

Hi,

I will be buying my first luger in the next week or so. It's a 1918 DWM in very nice condition, matching numbers and comes with what I'm told is the original holster.

I'm not sure if you are aware of the firearms laws in the UK, but all handguns are banned. We are however, allowed to buy pistols of 'historic interest' i.e, those dated prior to 1919. We are unable to keep these at home, they have to be held at a Home Office approved range and only fired on 'approved' days.

I'm paying �£700 for the Luger which is roughly $1200 (U.S)

I've been reading the posts on here for a while now and I must thank you all for the depth of knowledge and experience I've found. I may post some pictures but from my inital look at the Luger, it is nothing 'special'. I intend to shoot it as often as I'm allowed and plan to reload for it (and hope to replicate the WW1 loads) but that is for the future.

Hello there!

I understand your frustration and anger. I was also made to pay for the actions of one madman. I only lost 5 handguns, but one of which was put togeather for me for practical pistol shooting and cost �£1800 (which was a good price) I managed to shoot it in competition for about 12 months before I handed it in.

I fail to understand any youngster who 'joins up' nowadays. As you say, trusted whilst wearing the uniform of the Country, but put your 'civvies' on and you can no longer be trusted with firearms. Madness.

I gave all shooting up after the ban as I just couldn't face it any more. But after a while, I thought why let them win. I now shoot in PP comps abroad as often as I can afford to. I also own several rifles and a nice hi-cap remi 1100 s/a shotgun.
I will be adding the 4" luger to my ticket soon, and as my FAC is up for renewal in April, I'll be adding a few more calibres to it.

There are a few of us at my local club who have 'historical interest' pistols. Today I saw a nice Artillary Luger and a very nice 7.63 Mauser both owned by the same guy. I believe that there are several more Lugers held there but I'm yet to see them.

Nice to know I'm not the only Brit on here!

Cheers.

A frightening thought: It could happen here !
Luke

Hi,

I hope it never happens in the U.S.

Where do you think I enjoy my holidays as much as possible ;)

That is a very sad state of affairs and you have my deepest sympathies for having to live under those rules. If it ever happens in the US there will be plenty of folks not turning them in. Myself included, you want em come get em.

I'd recommend that you save your seven hundred pounds and just move to the USA. You will be able to own firearms, even as a legal alien, and you'll be one less immigrant that needs to learn the "language".

Why canâ??t us Brits accept the fact that handguns are banned, and the conditions under which they can be shot are incredibly restrictive. Moaning on here and being jealous of our American cousins is not going to change the law.

What I have done is to get myself a Section 7.1 Firearms Certificate, which enables me to keep all my live pistols at home (albeit a restricted selection). That way I do not get overstressed about UK firearms law. In addition, get yourself a glass-fronted gun cabinet (fitted with shelves and back-lit) and sit back, relax and admire your collection with a glass of chilled Chablis

While I don't know a great deal about the British political system, I do think it allows for laws to be changed. As long as that's true, I don't think I could accept such a ban in the sense that I'd be okay with it and not be concerned about it.

Here in this country I'm amazed that members of our armed forces can't keep firearms on base. The troops are trained in their use and expected to use them at times, but are restricted from possession. Very sad. This isn't just the grunts, but high ranking officers as well. I first became aware of this in an article by then Marine Col. Craig Boddignton, since promoted to general I hear.

When did that take affect? When I was on active duty we could keep as many guns on post as we wanted. All we had to do was check them into the Arms Room. One of the guys even had several full auto's he brought from home. That was a lot of fun when he brought out that old Thompson!

Pipeman, I don't know any details. I just know that the Ft. Bliss R&G club provides for the storing of GI guns which can't be kept on base.

And one of my dreams is to have a full auto Thompson with a drum mag!

Troops can't keep guns in their barracks, but I kept firearms in housing throughout my career.

So troops can keep them in the arms room or at a designated place such as the Rod and Gun club....

I doubt the rule was change in then last 6 years since I retired.


Ed

I always had my firearms in my on base quarters. Troops living in the barracks had to have them secured in the arms room as the barracks are rarely, if ever locked. I have never heard of this requirement unless it's something new, or perhaps it only pertains to them jarheads.

Stallturn,

I agree with you about moaning does not get the law changed but it's nice to chat with like minded people.

You mention the section 7.1 which is a valid point. The 7.1 pistols can only be those of obsolete calibre, a problem for me as I enjoy shooting guns as well as looking at them!!

You also mention a 'glass fronted gun safe' to enable you to view your collection. A nice idea but one I think my local firearms officer would not agree with. I have started to collect 'airsoft' and non firing replicas to display in such a cabinet. At the moment I have three, a 4" P08 Luger, 1911A1 Colt.45 and a berreta model 34. I would like to add a Broomhandle Mauser, Walther PPK, Walther P38, Enfield .455 revolver, Japanese Nambu, and prob. a few more. As you can see, my interest is mainly in military sidearms.

I also know if I was in the U.S.A, they would all be real. :)

Mr Brit,
My glass fronted gun cabinet is fully approved by my local firearms officer to hold my Section 7.1 weapons. They are no good for Section 7.3 weapons, as they must be held in designated places, and not at home. These cabinets are not cheap, and it wouldn't be worth buying one to hold replicas or de-activated weapons.
My interest is in early semi-automatics, which luckily fits the Section 7.1 criteria. For a pistol shooting enthusiast, like yourself, it must be a frustrating business.

To the respondent who said that the UK law could be changed, I'm afraid you don't understand the anti-gun culture that exists over here. The laws have been getting tighter, and if some policemen I know had their way, they would be even worse. And it is the police that the law-makers listen to when drafting up legislation. So the chances of getting a more liberal gun-owning environment are precisely.....................................nil.

You Brits really have it easy. All you have to do is look after a couple of guns at most, which leaves you free to engage in other pursuits. Pity poor Americans like me with so many guns I have time for little else. With four safes full at my city home and another couple of safes full at my desert hideaway, it takes far too much time to ponder and decide which weapons I will fire today and clean this evening. And think of all the time I waste practically every weekend attending gun shows and buying even more guns. Lugers? I haven't got the time to count them! And what about all the gun shops packed with so many firearms it dazzles the mind. And that rascally bunch of manufacturers, bringing out practically a dozen new offerings every few weeks. No, you gentlemen have a far simpler situation, and you should thank your nanny government for relieving you of many of the distractions of permissive gun ownership. Perhaps we can get some of that really meaningful gun control over here!

Aaron,
That's the kind of language we like to hear!
After all, why have four cars in your driveway if you can only drive one at a time!

(edited for irony)

For my British friends,

If you ever find yourself in the southern US states, please don't hesitate to look me up. I'd love the opportunity to take you shooting.

Whether you are into shotgun, rifle, pistol or submachine gun, I can accomodate you. Have you ever fired a 37mm launcher? Not as many ammunition options as the 40mm, but I've handloaded some nice surprises that are still legal.

PM me prior to your next vacation if I can be of assistance... :)

I feel quite complimented in that my feeble attempt at sarcasm ALMOST went over the head of our esteemed British comrade! After all, British sarcasm is so highly developed that most Americans are completely unaware when it is being directed at us. But seriously, I really took a great dislike for British firearms law when visiting a cousin in London some years ago. He had just proudly showed me his prized shotgun, when a car full of bobbies arrived, knocked on his door, and confiscated his weapon. It seems his ownership document had expired two days earlier!

Mr TAC,
Thank you for you put-down, which I think is a little undeserved.
To enjoy what you said you enjoyed last weekend you must have a Section 5 Certificate, and to have one of those (to my understanding) you have to be a registered firearms dealer.
We cannot all reach those lofty heights of privilege, and the rest of us (with ordinary jobs) have to be content with Section 7 of the 1997 Act.

For our American friends, these are all Sections of the UK Firearms Act of 1997 which goes into great detail as to what can and cannot be held by members of the great unwashed public.

To get this thread back on topic, I've uploaded a few photos of the Luger I bought last night. It's just a standard 1918 DWM, nice condition, lovely to shoot and very 'natural' to hold and point. It shoots high and right for me at 25 yards but I am reluctant to alter anything with out the correct tools, so will leave it all 'as it came' To be honest, I will not be shooting it that often, so I'm happy to just allow for the sights.

It is a pleasure to hold such a piece of history in my hands and to shoot it is a joy,( but I 'spose you all know that already eh!)

One thing I noticed with the spent 9mm cases. There is a mark on the ends of them which looks like chamber marks. I've took a photo of them and you should be able to make it out. It's as if the case has a very minor 'bottle neck affect' on it. Has anyone come across this before?

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/marked_cases.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/lugerrhs.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...oggle_open.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...leclose_up.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rear_toggle.jpg

The mark on your fired cases is caused by the "step" in the standard 9mm chamber in Lugers... the step appears on the blueprints... probably a manufacturing shortcut. Modern chambers do not have this ring.

If the "mark" you are speaking of is a dent of the case mouth, this is pretty common in Lugers, but is of no consequence unless you reload. This will shorted case life, but only slightly...

I sell a CD ($25.00 USD for Domestic shipment to North America or $27.00 USD for mailing to the UK and Europe) that contains very good scans of the 1913 blueprints for the Luger... they are an interesting study in themselves... If you are interested in a copy of the CD, please send me a Private Message by clicking on the icon at the bottom of this post showing two stick men shaking hands in front of an envelope... This month, $5.00 of the price will be donated to the Lugerforum operating costs...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/marked_cases.jpg

Hi,

First you need to become a member of a shooting club which has the Home Office Authority to hold section 7 (3) firearms. Next step is to apply for a Firearm Certificate. When specifing the calibres you require on the certificate ask for the pistol calibre/s of your choice. When the FAC arrives in the post, inform the owner/manager of the club you are a member of and he will look out for whatever pistol you require (providing it complies with the home office section 7(3). Then the club will announce special section 7 days or evenings when the handguns can be studied and fired.

The above can be a long drawn out procedure and could possibly take several months.

Ain't you Americans glad you live over the other side of the pond and not here in the land of the not so free!

In a discussion last year on Jan Still's Forum it was reported that the purpose of the chamber step is to provide a positive gas seal and thereby reduce chamber fouling. Also, it is a more complicated--and more expensive--to manufacture than a straight-cut 9mm chamber.

Here's the address of the discussion http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp...s=chamber,step

The dent in the case mouth comes from the fact that the ejector is in the side of the receiver extension. As it begins to remove the spent shell from the breechblock it pushes the shell sideways, where the mouth hits the opposite reciever rail on its way out.

--Dwight

Mr Tacfoley,

What I did was apply for a variation on my ticket for 1 9mm and 1 .45 pistol (pre 1919). Then I visited a gunsmith in Birmingham who had a 1916 luger, looked in 'gunmart' magazine which carry one or two section 7 dealer adverts. i finally bought the 1918 P08 from the section 7 dealer who also owns the shooting centre I am a member of.

The club I am a member of is in Leicester, in the Midlands.

No idea how many clubs there are in the U.K with section 7 but I've seen a few advertising the fact.

Shooting is supervised like any club shooting, i.e 1 range officer controlling the firing point for safety reasons.

The ammo is a strange situation. I am authorised to hold ammo of several calibres which I can keep legally at home. However, the ammo which is to be used in my 9mm section 7 luger has to be stored at the range. So, I can hold 9mm ammo at home for my 9mm carbine, but not for my 9mm luger! The ammo is bought out to me at the same time as the pistol.

The only pistols that are allowed to be stored at home are section 7 (1). These are pistols which use 'obsolete' calibres. Any pistol chambered for 'readily available' calibres, eg 9mm, .45acp, .38 special etc. is placed into section 7 (3) and has to be stored at an home office approved section 7 club.

Hope this explains it all to you.

Dwight,

Thanks for the info and link on the chamber markings. Very interesting.

For my good British friends,
I have just received a gun magazine that I subscribe to. In it, there is an interesting article about Canadian gun laws. Breifly, it states that there is one politcal party there that wants to ban all handguns. But but the costs of of registering hand guns in Canada has grown so dramatically the the government is having second thoughts about registering them. Two oppositing parties are admitting that handguns are a symptom of a disease and not the disease itself. They admit that handgun control has not reduced crime at all. The president of the Canadian Professional Police Association agrees with this position.

Basically, the big cities in Canada want gun control and everybody else don't. But maybe good sense is beginning to take hold in Canada. Hopefully, some of this good sense will cross over the water to the UK.
Big Norm

Dear 'Mr Brit',
very nice looking Luger that you purchased. I agree with you that you should not change or alter it in anyway. Its a fine specimen. Congradulations!
Big Norm

Big Norm,

It is a nice idea that our Government will 'see sense' over the pointless handgun ban, but I doubt it ever happening. The ban cost the British taxpayer millions of pounds (and I believe it still costing them �£�£�£�£) so to admit they got it wrong would be a major embarrassment for them. The one small ray of light may be the london olympics to be held in 2012. Some do say they expect .22lr semi auto pistols to be reclassified as section one to enable the British shooting team to practice and compete without having to travel into Europe to practice legally.

Thanks for the comments about my Luger. It has certainly fired up my interest in them. I've purchased 2 e-books, one about the Luger in general and one about the DWM production.

On another topic, I am thinking of buying a Mauser Broomhandle in 7.63 in the near future, and hope to build a small collection of historical pistols over the next few years.

Thanks for explaining the difficulties of legal gun ownership in the UK. What is the situation with illegally possessed weapons and their use by criminals? Are they being smuggled into the country via the channel tunnel? Has there been an upsurge in gun crimes due to increased gun smuggling? Are the police being trained to cope with such a situation (if it indeed exists)?

Aaron,

The illegal possestion of any firearm has a jail sentence of 5 years attached to it. Not sure if any criminal who has been charged under this law has actually served this jail time.

The criminal use of firearms has risen each year since the handgun ban. I'm not sure as to the percentages, but seem to recall one year it was mentioned in the press that firearm use by criminals had risen 37% that year. Clearly, the handgun ban has been the failure it was claimed it would be by those few Mp's who were against it in the first place. Only this week has seen the funeral of a WPC who was gunned down in Bradford. Shot with an illegally owned handgun. I've not seen any reference to where the scum got it from. The handgun ban didn't save that brave ladies life did it?

I think the government were supprised when most legal gun owners who were paid out for their handguns went out and spent the money on other legal firearms.

Another recent ban our wonderful leaders imposed on us was the 'banning' of Brocock self contained air cartridge guns. They have 'grandfathered' them so the present owners can still keep them, but they are unable to sell, give away or swap them. When the original owner dies, the guns have to be handed in to the police. One rule they made was any owner who had one of these had to apply for a firearms certificate. Most owners didn't own 'real' firearms, so now they have been forced to hold their airguns on FAC they have mostly also applied for real guns to go on it at the same time, again increasing the amount of legal firearms in public hands, not what the powers that be intended I think.

I'm not alone in my opinion on this, but I would leave this Country tommorow and move to the U.S. if I could afford to. I have spoke to my wife about doing this, but I'm 45 now and really can't face the upheavel of it.

I will certainly think about retiring to Florida when my working life comes to an end, but that is a few years away yet.

The police in the UK get closer to an fully armed force each time an officer is killed. I personally think this would be a large backward step and the use of firearms would excalate out of control. We have armed response police who's job it is to deal with firearms offences. the average bobby has little knowleadge of guns, prob. only what he/she was shown in basic training.

I work with/for members of the public and of all those I've spoke to about the handgun ban, not one has thought it a good idea. I've also spoken to several police officers, again, all with the opinion that it was a knee jerk reaction and a 'vote catcher' in an election year.

Sorry about the long post but it is a subject that angers me ( and the 50,000 other shooters that it affected) !!

Brit,

Well there are a lot of jobs here depending on your occupation. Building is going wild and all of the New yorkers are moving down here because of crime and big city crowding. Lots of guns, gun shows, etc. Speak to Tac about moving, he seems to have considered it. Winter weather is great and you would be welcome.

Age,

I am a self employed heating engineer. Which means I am registered with the UK governing body 'c.o.r.g.i' which allows me to legally work on natural gas central heating systems, pipework, gas fires etc. I should imagine that there is not much call for heating engineers in Florida eh ?

I'm too old to retrain in anything else now, so it'll have to remain a dream.

i'm sure I would be made very welcome, as all the Americans I've met have been nothing but polite and friendly.

Brit,
there was a recent article on the computer that British 'Boobies' (Spelling?) were asking for permission to carry handguns because of the upsurge in violent crime. There was no comment by the news as to whether or not that is likely.

Don't listen to AGE about weather in the USA. He is from Florida where bad winter weather means getting a bad sunburn. Really bad weather, the rest of the time down there, means a huricane is coming and is about to destroy everything in sight. If you buy a house in Florida, you might lose it to a sink hole the next day. If you think that Americanese is tough to understand, try listening to a New Yorker talk to anyone in Mississippi. Hee! Hee!

Come up to Michigan, Wisconsin or Minnesota. Winter up here means breaking out the skis or the snowmobile and having lots of fun. Summertime is for great fishing or golfing. Finally, our water is fresh water. No earthquakes, hugh forest fires or sand storms. We won't allow them.

Good luck to your Olympic shooting team. I hope that they finish WAY UP THERE, second only to the USA.
Big Norm

Brit, you may as well forget any thoughts of legally moving to the United States, as I understand we are not accepting your type of trained people as permanent residents. However, if you do decide to come, take a flight to Mexico, contact a "coyote" who will smuggle you across the border, and on arrival you will suddenly be made entirely welcome as a permanent resident. Additionally, you will be provided with free medical care and free schooling for your children. No one will ever deign to challenge your presence.

Mr. Brit,

Why not consider taking a short boatride east and settle here in Norway? Gun legislation is quite liberal by European standards, and with our climate we sure could do with some more heating engineers!

Regards,

Balder

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I will bet that Norway isn't accepting any immigrants.

Brit,

I currently live about 50 miles north of Orlando. It's supposed to go down to about 32F tonight (0 Centigrade). The high tomorrow is to be 72F. All modern houses here have both heating and AC units. The heat pumps are popular (we have one), but a new 40,000 person development about 10 miles away has all gas furnaces.

It's also true that summers are hot, real hot. In Dec & Jan lows range from about 30F to 55F and highs from 60F to 75F. In April and Sept lows range from 60F to 70F and highs from 70 to 90F. In August lows run 70 to 75F and highs from 80 to 100F (that's what AC is for).

Norm makes a little sense--before hurricane Charley we lived in South FL (200 miles south of here near Ft. Myers). After Charley my insurance company rebuilt our house and we sold it for 4 times what we paid for it 12 years ago. We cried all the way to the bank. We are now having a condo. built about 20 miles from our old house--we're renting here until it's done.

However, I lived most of my life in the frozen north, mostly Pennsylvania but also Michigan, Ohio and Connecticut. I'll never go back to the frozen wasteland unless it's in a box.

Florida is greaaaat.

Mr. Brit,

Just for comparison, where I live in the area of northwest Oregon and Washington, the climate is very much like Britain; you'd feel right at home. Gun ownership is easy here, too...

--Dwight

Aaron,

As long as the immigrant in question is a citizen of a country from the European Economic zone, he'll have no problem settling here.

Balder

In other words, no fat Americans!! :D :D :roflmao:

As far as moving to the US goes, this place is so big and has so many different climates that you would have absolutely no problem finding somewhere to live and work, no matter what you do for a living.

Just stay out of California, DC and Boston and you'll be fine... :cheers:

Get on a plane and fly north to Svalbard, everyone from any nationality can settle there.. but be aware of the climate;)