My 'New' 1902 Fat Barrel AE
 

I just bought a 1902 American Eagle "Fat Barrel" as a personnel Christmas to myself. I am talking to number of people now about a digital camera and so I hope to have some pictures soon (hopefully). There is not much information in either Stills or Kenyon regarding this Luger so I want to ask a few questions here.

My Luger is sorta unusual in that instead of the usual two digit seral numbers on all the parts there is the last three digits on most parts of this gun. Only the trigger and locking bolt have the last two digits of the serial number. The thumb safety does not have a serial number on it. But there are three digit serial numbers all over the place. I have never seen the last three digit serial number on parts on any other Luger. Is this normal?

The only useful information that Kenyon supplies is that some of these guns are proofed and some are not. My gun is late in the latter segment of the production and is not proofed. Is this proper for my gun?

The grips that came with the gun are not original to the gun and are pretty messed up and not of the same condition as the gun. The gun is pretty nice looking and has not been messed with. I would put its bluing at about 93% or so and the straw in the high 80%. I want to put proper grips on this gun that would be appropriate for its condition. But I have been told that there are very slight differences between the 1900 and 1906 AE grips. I have some 1900 and 1906 grips and would like to know which, if either, would be right for this Luger?

As soon as I get a digital camera and learn how to use it, the Adobe Photoshop that I just acquired and my scanner printer I will post lotsa pictures along with doing a lot of bragging.
Big Norm :biggulp:

Norm,

A -very- merry Christmas to you!

1900AE #13499 has three-digit numbers on small parts. Not unknown, it would be really interesting to know how common this really is. Also, I've never been sure about this, but I think you have to dismount the safety lever to see the number on the thumb safety on a commercial Luger.

I have no 1902AE Fat Barrels with proofs until about #23000. This is not definitive, of course. You didn't say what the serial# of your gun is :)

Can't wait until you start braggin'...

--Dwight

Happy New Year Dwight & Norm,
I have a friend who has a 1900 AE with 3 digits on most of the small parts. I am sure he would have no problem with pictures if that would help.
Mike

Mike, we would love to see another thread on your friends Fat Barrel!

Norm, I look forward to your picture excursion ;) Call me once you get the camera and I'll walk you through using it.


Ed

Norm, The M1902 commerical luger would follow the standard serialization of the period, with no numbers on the safety lever & hold open, and the side plate & TD lever will be numbered on the lower edge, and the center toggle link will be numbered internally. I have seen these with either 2 or 3 digits or mixed on most of the numbered parts. TH

Norm,
The right grip is different between a 1900 and a 1906. The 1900 right grip has a wide rib that runs nearly the full length of the rear of the grip. It starts at the curved section at the bottom and runs up to within about 3/8" from the top. The 1906 has a short thin rib because of the change to a coil spring. It starts at the same place as a 1900 but only runs up as far as the web in the frame that supports the recoil lever assembly. So, a 1906 grip will work on a 1900 (or 1902) frame but a 1900 grip will not work on a 1906 frame.
Cheers,
Ron

P.S. Congrats on getting an '02. A landmark gun, and one that deserves to be in your collection.

Thank you everyone. Except for the grips, I am really happy with my prize. Especially after I saw the prices on the two that Simpson is selling. I got a good deal.

Ron, thanks for the information. The only 1906 AE that I have has 'Ideal' grips on it. I'll take a look at some Portugese M2's that I have to see what you are talking about. I think they are model 1906's. What about the checkering? Is there a difference there? I also just looked at my gun and it has a flat spring just like the 1900's. If I can't find a good 1900 set of grips, maybe I can modify a P-08 set. There seems to be only a slight difference in the left grip because of the grip safety. I gotta study that a bit more. This gun is just too good to be sitting there without grips on it. I have many nice, unnumbered, original P-08 grips that I could work with.

Th, I was afraid that someone would say that the serial number is under the thumb safety. I really hate taking that apart.

Dwight, I was reluctent to say my serial number. But hell, I'm among friends. My serial number is 22970. My gun looks better then the gun pictured in Kenyons book too (brag! brag! I love it) Maybe if Stills comes out with a new book, he will include this gun next time. Maybe he will ask me for pictures and I will become famous for being in his book. (Hee! Hee!)

Ed, I have shot of my mouth to number of people now and I think that I know what I should be looking for on a digital camera. Keep tuned. Wait till JohnD sees my new, minty, 'P' code HK. He will be awe struck. Maybe he will ask me for pictures of that gun in his book. I may be doubly famous. Autographs anyone?
Big Norm

Norm,

Thanks for the serial#. You could have told me privately...yours is 100 guns below the first c/BUG proofed Fat Barrel I have documented.

Take a good look at the inside of the left grip, a grip-safety grip is inletted quite a bit compared to the P-08 style.

A Fat Barrel -and- a new Krieghoff! A terrific new year in the Big Norm household!

--Dwight

Dwight,
I feel a little edgy about the HK. It is very minty and minty Luger make me wonder if its been expertly redone. I might be going to the Ohio Gun Collectors Assn meeting Jan 7-8 to have Doug Smith of FGS take a look at it. I am waiting for Ken to get back with me to tell me if Doug is going to be there. When I Emailed Ken earlier, he told me that maybe Doug would be going to Germany and might miss that show. I'll skip the show if Doug isn't going to be there. Its a six hour drive in possibly bad weather and I have a lot of work to do around the house. I also recently purchased another 1914 DWM artillery with unit marks and so I am eager to show Doug that one too.

Just a very quick look at the left grip of a 1900 and a P-08 shows a humb on the P-08 at about the area where the inside of the grip comes in contact with the grip safety. But this was a quick look see. First, I will try the right hand grip to see if there are any unforseen problems. If that works, then I will take a real close look at the left hand side. If I do a good job of removing that little hump and then restain, it MIGHT work. I might have to sacrific a nice unnumbered set of original P-08 grips. That hurts. I haven't seen any difference on the outside checkering between a 1900 and a P-08. But I will also take a better look at this later. Right now, I must select a set of grips from a bunch that I have whose wear matches the wear on the gun. Heck, I gotta take a closer look in my treasure chest drawer to double check whether or not I already have a set of 1900 grips hidden in there. Somewhere in the back of my pea sized brain I have this notion that the 1900 AE that I have the 'Ideal' grips on actually came with original grips. In that case, I am golden.
Big Norm

Norm,

Congratulations on your 02 Fat barrel, it's one of the goals I have for the future. You might want to look for a set of Swiss grips; I see them every once in a while on e-bay and elsewhere. They should be milled for the grip safety. I think any of the early Swiss grips could be adapted for your frame. Obviously you would want to stay away from the grips with the boarder on them. I have a restored 1906 Navy that has a set of new old stock Swiss grips, they look great.

Bob M.

Norm,
It would take quite a bit of modification to a P08 left grip to work with a grip safety. As Dwight has indicated, the back of the grip is routed out the full length of the grip safety, so there is more to it than just removing a hump. If you do have a set of 1900 grips, they will work fine. If not, I have a set of excellent quality repro 1906 grips that will also work that you might be interested in. Let me know and I will send you a PM with the particulars.
Ron

Norm, In addition to the inside milling of orig grips being different than PO8 grips, the number of lines of checkering became fewer at DWM about 1914. So any grips after that will be too "course". TH

Norm,

We both must have been good all year 'cause Santa brought us both the same Christmas gifts.

I bought my very special HK (P 59) for my Christmas present and at the SAR show here in Phoenix, I found a 1900 AE among the machine guns! I'm trying to fiqure out what I did last year to be blessed with both of these so I can do a repeat performance this year.

Congratulations on your new aquisitions!

Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ

Jack,
I think that the kinda good that I did during the past year wasn't the kinda good that the good Lord wanted me to be good at. So there were times that he wooped on me. Then He must have decided that I had enough and backed off in the last few days of the year and allowed me some good luck. I'll happily take what He gives me.
Big Norm

Norm

I have been wooped on pretty bad myself this past year, but like you, the last days sure turned out nice. I look forward to sharing my toys with you and all The Forum and comparing side by side someday.

Jack

Big Norm and Jack, that is why we have friends, so when we get whomped, we can complain about it and have our friends say its okay.

Jack; its ok :)

Big Norm, its ok :)

:cheers:

Ed

Ed,

The benefits fo The Forum are just endless, aren't they?

Jack

its helped me after being whomped ;)

Well, the good news is that a very highly respected member of this forum has just sold me a repro set of proper grips. If this man says that these grips are good and proper, then I unquestionably accept them. While the straps on this gun show some wear, I believe that this gun is just too good to allow it to sit there naked, without the grips.

Now I can continue my search for a proper digital camera with which I can show everybody my prize and brag like crazy. I now have a good idea of what I am going to look for in a camera, all I have to do is find it in the stores. I just hope that I can find my tripod for the pictures.

The bad news is that Doug Smith will not be at the OGCA meeting this weekend, so I will not be able to take that minty HK 'P' code and get his opinion on that Luger. Now that I am out of cash, that was the only real reason for going. But not to worry, the stock market and my stocks are going up and so I may soon be out there again, looking for treasure.
Big Norm :cheers:

My friend, Big Norm, was brave enough to bring this AE Fat Barrel along to the recent SOS show to get others' opinions on the piece.

Along with such bravery does come the risk of receiving some bad news, though.

Several advanced collectors and one prominent dealer whom had a chance to see the FB in person seemed to agree this was a nicely done refinished piece and Norm shared it came out of the certain MN luger shop.

I shared my observations with Norm on this piece as well. I was most troubled by the lack of "cut" of the polished safety area and that the new polished area was a bit "fuzzy" in shape and maybe a bit too narrow as well. The straw also did not look like it was 100+ years old as well. There were no "halos" on the Germany stamping if I recall.

This is difficult news for a luger collector to receive, but Norm did other, less-experienced collectors a great service by bringing this piece "out in the light of day", allowing advanced collectors a chance to critique it and letting the beginning collectors around the table a chance to learn. And to know the supplier of this piece.

My thanks to Norm for this !!!:cheers:

Might those of us not privileged to attend be allowed
"to know the supplier of this piece"?

If this Fat Barrel was initially sold as original in all respects and the conclusion by those who saw it at the SOS show was that it was refinished, then the original representation should be considered as misleading and incorrect. If this "misrepresentation" was effected with full knowledge beforehand, then its sale could be considered as fraudulent. Of course, how does one PROVE that the seller knew it was refinished and misrepresented it as original? It is my feeling that the buyer should, if he is dis-satisfied with the piece, request (or demand) a full refund even way after the three day inspection period or threaten to post the seller's name on this and the other Forum.

Gentlemen,
I showed my 'prizes' to a large group of people after they had drank a ton of excellent imported wine that clearly distorted their greatly aging eyes and I took their criticizms like a real man should. I forgot to load my camera with film before leaving for Kentucky so I can not show an personally altered photo of Petey, old buddy pal, and TomA. But, as the above mentioned real man that I am, I am working my Adobe PhotoShop software now to come up with apropriate pictures of these gentlemen. Now where is that picture of 'King Kong' knocking a huge dinosaur-like bat out of the air in a fight over one of my Lugers? :grr:

Ron Wood,
sorry that I didn't really get a chance to meet you personally at the party. When I opened my case of HIGHLY PRIZED HK's and my 1902AE FB, I got sorta knocked around by everybody and lost conciousness for a short while. After reading so much that you have written on the forum, I was really looking forward to meeting you. I left a message at your hotel in hopes of amending that but you had apparently already quickly left town. Don't worry, I paid your bill when the woman at the desk questioned me as to if I really knew you. .:D Gosh! You Texas guys are really slick. But Yankees are slick too. I paid the bill with my 'other' credit card that I got in Detroit just before I left for Kentucky. :roflmao:
Big Norm :p

Norm,

This is the shape and slight "cut" I was mentioning...


http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/metz_no_14_2.jpg

Pete,
I remembering you graciously pointing out something about a cut at our meeting at the show, But I was still whipped from the long drive to Louisville and was trying to get an idea of the flow and feeling of my first time visit at this show, and I didn't quite get what you were talking about. I reviewed your excellent picture above as well as the picture in Stills book and I don't see a difference in them and my gun. What am I missing?

The bluing on my 1902 gun is not new. There is normal wear in the expected spots. I also showed this gun to Doug Smith and he felt that the gun was authentic except for the grips, which I knew. The attention at Dougs table quickly turned to my HK 'P' code and that gun became the focus of attention there. After reviewing Dougs fine assortment of HK's, I have to agree with his opinion on THAT gun. So I still I still might have been upset because of that to be truely listening to your later opinion.

At the party, later, I did not hear much of the comments about my other HK's because everyone crowded around my display. I only heard a comment by Tom about the side inscription on a different 'P' code HK, which I take some umberage at. But I am stalling on that topic until I purchase a digital camera, which won't happen until after I finish some personal business, including my income tax. Our friends in the government business get mad when they don't get a share of my profits. I don't want a bunch of black helecopters flying over my subdivision, my dog shot and my house burnt down. Those people have a history of that sort of thing.

Anyway, I will comment on the 'side inscripted' HK at a later date when I get that camera and I will post pictures as well as a retort under the HK thread. In the mean time, do not fret. I could not find that picture of 'King Cong' swatting at a huge, dinosaur-like bat over my Lugers. (Hee! Hee!). I won't be altering you avatar - just yet.
Still your buddy, Big Norm

Ponyman,
you missed a good party at the SOS show. Good food, good wine and good people. You even missed a good change to see me faint. I don't believe that the name of the seller came up, but I could be wrong. At this moment in time, I don't know if it would be right to advertise his name. WHILE NOT INTENDING TO BELITTLE ANYONE ON THIS POST, there is only the great Ron Wood, who is on this forum and who I think highly enough of to make me drop dead believe that this gun is a fake (if that is what Pete is alluding to). Ron was at the party but he may have left early. Also, a lot of people crowded around the display and he may not have been able to actually see the gun. What I want to do is get a digital picture of this gun and compare it side by side with Pete's picture. I can do it because I have the gun in my sweaty palms. But that doesn't help others on this forum. If the IRS doesn't throw me in jail, I'll be back. Thrust me.
Big Norm

Norm,

Post a photo of your AE FB polished safety area and the strawed parts when you are able...entire gun photos would be nice as well.

I did not think your FB was a "fake"...just a refinished piece probably done 10-12 years ago...

You asked and I gave you my opinion...

You told me who the seller was before your money was sent and I shared my concerns about that source. This was 1-2 months ago, if I recall.

I think you got opinions from Doug Smith and possibly Don Rousseau as well on the floor of the show and those were not clouded by the dinner party's wines...:)

Norm,

The main problem with the P-Code is that the side frame markings are clearly engraved; the striations caused by the engraver's chisel are apparent to the naked eye.

Tom A.

Pete,
Doug Smith and Don Rousseau in addition to a few others, were indeed there. But, to my knowledge, they were more interested in examining a HK of mine rather than the 1902. I also thank you for your opinion. I am fearful that my post here might has been taken as much more hostile than I intended. I tried to add smilely faces but I guess that those faces didn't do the intended job. I really did enjoy meeting you for the first time. Your comments at the show may have surprised me but they did not make me mad at you.

Doug Smith hammered me on an HK that I had recently purchased from Jerry Peters here in Michigan. But in doing so, Doug did indeed increase my knowledge. He and I had a very good and long discussion on HK's in general. Jerry guaranteed that the gun was a mint HK and said that if I found out that it wasn't, he would take it back. We discussed the fact that I am leery of ANY minty Luger. I took the que from another poster on this thread and called Jerry and asked him to take it back and to refund my money. He refused to refund the $6500 that I paid, but he did offer to buy it back for $1000. Big of him. But this event may have influenced the tone of my post here and made me sound harsher on this thread than I intended. I apologize for that.

When I get my camera, I will post pictures of both the 1902 AE FB and the HK that I bought off off Jerry Peters. I might be a bit slow because I am still learning all the bells and whistles on my new computer and printer. I am sure that my new camera will also challenge my talents. Just bare with me and I will come through.
Big Norm

TomA,
I think that we should cover this at a later time on a HK thread. I need to get a good digital camera and to take some good pictures. At the show, I was standing behind some people and couldn't really hear a lot of what you were saying. You were examining the inscriptions on that 'P' code with a small, but bright light. I remember someone asking you how you could tell. I could not hear your response. It might have something to do with your bright light. But I am just guessing. A later post in the HK section by me with some pictures will open up the discussion to me and everyone else on this forum. It could be a good learning experience.
Big Norm

wish I could have been there!


BTW, if folks put a friggin smiley face, it usually means they are friggin kidding

Norm,

I re-sent an email from you a few months back. From re-reading that email, it appears the FB was not from Jerry Peters but out of MN as I posted earlier.

Look forward to your posting of your FB photos...I never mind if I am proven wrong about my opinions... :D For your sake, I hope I am proven wrong with my opinion your FB is a nicely done (but not 100% correctly done) rework...

That is really crappy news about J. Peters and the HK affair...if fellow collectors do not stand by their WORD, what the heck is wrong with our "hobby"...:(

Suspect you got stuck with a questionable gun...maybe like he did...

I hear all the time from others in collecting that one "little secret" no one wants to talk about and certainly not ADMIT TO is that they do pass one bad gun onto the next less-unfortunate fellow that might not know all he should...

Rather than taking the loss and selling the picece as it is, they want to recoupe their monies and even make a BIG profit...as a guy recently confided to me he is doing...

IMHO...this is as bad as the boosters and spurious dealers out there...:soapbox:

Pete,
the FB was out of MN. I took an HK that I bought from Jerry Peters with me around the SOS show floor to show to Doug Smith. I told Jerry that I was leery of mint Lugers and that the deal was not final until I had Doug look at it. Unfortunately, because of Dougs bad health, he was not at the next OGCA meeting. The SOS show was my first opportunity to show it to Doug. I also showed Doug the FB while I was at it. So I carried two guns with me around the floor of the SOS show. Thats another reason that I was pretty tired and sore shouldered at the show. Those guns got pretty heavy after a while at that large SOS show.

Doug had a large number of HK's from his own collection for sale at his table and they attracted a lot of HK guys. That, I assume, is why Doug spent more time on my HK and why so many other people saw it.
Big Norm

Ed,
you should have been there. I came close to needing you for protection from Derek Seltzer. :D He was alway standing near a table that had a 1908 navy that I was interested in. I kept going back to it and losing my place in the show. But Derek was VERY interested in the cowboy hat that I was wearing. I didn't know if Derek was involved with the 1908 navy so I looked for him on the second day to see if we could work out something with the hat and that navy. But I couldn't find him again. :(

Dereks a good guy and we did some serious joking around. He really wanted my hat. The hat band too! We went into the lobby and tried to have our pictures taken together. We randomly grabbed some lady there and coerced her into taking our picture. She said; "Hey! Your cameras not working.". That is when I found out that I forgot to load it with film before leaving for Kentucky. All those pictures that I took at the forums party were taken with a dead camera. :grr: Derek couldn't stop laughing. :roflmao: The next time that I meet him I'll have to remember to keep one hand on my hat. ;)
Big Norm

Lost in this discussion which is bouncing between Norm's FB luger and a HK luger is the sad story that Norm could not rely on the WORD of a fellow collector and friend that sold Norm the HK.

A lesson is there for the rest of us : Even when buying from a trusted friend or fellow collector in person, get his/her "money back" guarantee in writing before monies exchange hands.

Growing up my Dad taught me that a man is only as good as his word. I've tried to live up to that all my life. It's cost me some money when I priced some things and later found out they were worth a whole lot more. It's a sad world we live in when this is no longer true.

I live up to the same Golden Rule Pipeman
I know of a few whos word is as good as gold,
Geo Anderson is one fellow collector who stands behind what he sells along with others that I have delt with on this board

Jim

So true everyone. I used to like to go to Jerry Peters house. Lotsa small, fresh vegetable stands out there and I would see deer running across the road to his place. I always love to watch them. I passed on Jerrys gun twice until he gave me his guarantee. My instincts told me that it was wrong. I liked Jerry. It was nice to go to someones place and just talk about Lugers. See his Lugers and show mine over a cup of coffee. But somewhere along the way, he became a dealer instead of a collector. Thats all gone now. Quick money wins out again. I am truely sad about that.
Big Norm

Norm, did you point blank ask for your money back from Jerry?

And if so, how long afterwards of getting the gun?

Eddy,
Yes. He said that would not give me my money back but if I wanted to sell it to him, he would give me $1,000 for the gun that I paid him $6500 for. A little insulting, hey?
Big Norm