Need help on DWM 1918
 

Hey guys I picked up a 1918 shooter this week. It has been reblued and has some pitting on it near the proofs on the slide. It is however all matching and has vopo grips. It doesnt have a double date or a saftey sear. I need help on the magazine and the front strap. I think that the base may have been replaced on a newer mag tube. However the magazine number does match the gun.

http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/3662/magin1qq.jpg

Side of mag

The 2/1001 are the VOPO number meaning luger magazine, so it is a post war replacement. they are also very good magazines, and made by Schmeisser.


Ed

1001 is the DDR ordinance code for Haenel-Schmeisser, who made the extruded-style magazines. Iirc the 2/ indicates the second mag.

I'm really curious to know if you can make out what alll the X-ed out unit marks are. It might be tremendously instructive to see the entire gun and all the markings.

--Dwight

........

Pat, You are correct that most of these new DDR mags bear the 2/1001 code on the side of the mag tube and the 1 or 2 for 1st or 2nd mag, will be stamped on the alum bottom, usually above the serial number. Another means of IDing these mags, is the off center pinning of the bottom piece to the tube. TH

Nope.

Heard it somewhere, obviously wrong...

--Dwight

Sorry for the delay. I hope this picture is a bit better.

http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/2...apvopo19ln.jpg

A proper East German rework with interesting markings. I have seen the intact "flower " marking and the "S IV" style markings on DDR lugers before. The magazines are proper VOPO rework magazines if they are serial numbered to the pistol with "1" and "2" designations on the bottom. The grips are proper DDR grips. I think it is not only a shooter but is collectible in its own right as well.

Is the first crossed out letter an "S" or something else? The bottom two cancelled markings may be Prussian school markings are they "P.P." or "P.R." stamps?

This grip strap is a veritable cornucopia of markings!

The crossed-out mark under the second lineout from the left appears to be SP.Bn. which represents the Schupo of the Saxon city or governmental district of Bautzen. The weapon number 694 would be consistent with this. I have a Luger marked SP.Bn.669. If correct, this was a weapon of the police of Saxony during the Weimar era. I, too, am curious about the x'd and lined-out marking to the left of this. Might it have been another "SP"?

If there is no evidence that it ever had a sear safety, it would indicate that it was probably removed from police service before 1933. However, no information was presented about the serial numbers on the frame and the barrel. Do they confirm that the upper and lower parts of this pistol are originally from the same gun? I have seen a few instances where they were not and it completely mislead the identification of the gun.

All the numbers match at 1685 on all parts including the barrel. I will take some more pics of them this week. The letters are PB on the strap. It has some pitting and was reblued sometime after the pitting occured. So I only consider it to be a shooter.

I agree with Don that these are interesting markings showing a long period of use by the police. The "PB." markings (with a full stop after only the B) is the proper marking for the Police School at Bonn per the 1932 Prussian marking protocols. If it had a full stop after each letter it could indicate the Police School at Berlin per the 1922 Prussian marking protocols.

My eyes can't make out the other markings to see if they are Saxon or not. It would be interesting to know if this pistol was actually transferred from Saxon to Prussian ownership. We could better tell that if we knew if the pistol ever had a sear safety installed and then removed, as the VP armorers should have removed it if it were present, IMHO. We will have to wait for some more pictures.

Steve,

If possible, please try to take a clear closeup of the grip strap without the white material and without using a flash. The best lighting for these is outside on a bright overcast day without direct sunlight.

Here is another pic.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/out2.jpg

Steve,

This is a much better photo although it still leaves some questions.

Forget what I said about Saxon police markings. This photo does not show what I thought I saw.

I agree with George that the PB. on the bottom represents the Prussian police school at Bonn. This school was opened in September 1926.

I still can't read the upper mark. Perhaps it is P.Bg. representing the Brandenburg police school as specified in the 1922 marking orders. This school was located in Neurippin and was closed in September 1926, the same time the Bonn school was opened. It would appear that the same weapon number 691 was used in both marks. Perhaps some of the weapons of the school at Neurippin were transferred to the Bonn school and kept the same numbers. Here is an example of a P.Bg. mark that has been x'd out:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload..._sdiiir140.jpg
In this instance, the gun was transferred to the Schupo of the D�¼sseldorf district.

After looking at an enlargement of the latest photo, I'm less inclined to believe the first mark was P.Bg. Whatever it was, it was x'd out, leaving the weapon number that was re-used in the mark PB.691. by the police school at Bonn. At some later time, both sets of marks were lined out.

Perhaps the first mark was some non-standard mark used by the Bonn school between its founding in 1926 and the issue of the 1932 marking instructions in Manual 40a.

Steve,

I agree with Don that the "PB." marking seems to be the last Weimar Republic / NS Zeit period one for the Polizeischule Bonn. I can't make out the other cancelled marks either.

The intact "S IV *" markings are unknown postwar Volkspolizei markings that seem to sometimes appear on these VOPO lugers. An interesting set of markings showing long police use and re-issue.

My guess is that this pistol was removed from police service (lack of sear or mag safeties) and used by the German Army until it was captured by the Russians, after which it entered Vopo service. I have a number of Prussian police school pistols listed in my database that do not have sear or mag safeties. It seems to me that the schools would have obeyed the 1933 order to add these safeties if they were in their inventories at that time.

Don,

You may well be correct that the pistol was taken out of police service for a time during the NS Zeit. But, another possibility exists.

This pistol could have remained in police service with the sear safety being removed by the Volkspolizei. All the VOPO lugers I have seen to date have no sear safety (or show that this safety was removed), so it seems that it was removed during DDR reworking, if not previously. I also have a 1957 DDR "Waffen- und Gel�¤ndenkunde" published by the MdI that does not mention the sear safety on the P.08 in police service. The sear safety is not shown on the illustrations or mentioned in the nomenclature or text.

The small lot of newly produced East German lugers (model 1001) that were made in 1953 were not manufactured with sear safeties. This appears to be the standard. I would expect the reworked police pistols to be brought into line with this new DDR Volkspolizei configuration by having the sear safety (if still present) removed.

Steve,

You should be able to determine if a sear safety was removed by the Vopo as suggested by George. There would be a hole or filled-in hole in the reciever where the sear safety was riveted and the sideplate should have a slot milled along the top edge (unless the sideplate has been replaced). Finally, there would be a hole in the receiver under the sideplate.

Even if there is evidence that this pistol once had a sear safety, I think the fact that it was captured by the Russians suggests strongly that it was in use by the German Army at the time. If it had remained the property of the police school at Bonn, it would have been captured by U.S. or British forces.

Here are the pictures you really want now and I think they speak for themselves in answering the mystery. I was incorrect when I said it was all original. However there is not any evidence of the frame having a cut in it.


http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/safety1.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/safety2.jpg

Steve,

A cut in the frame would be indicative of a mag safety, not a sear safety. The mag safety idea was a bad one and many police units apparently ignored that part of the order and installed only sear safeties. The hole in the receiver that I indicated would show that a sear safety had been installed would be a vertical hole in the flange that sticks out of the left side of the receiver just above the sear bar. It would be just above the "85" in the first photo above.

Those only are the only pieces that were replaced. I assume it would be possible that it had the safety and then it was replaced with the one seen above.

Steve,

I think we're talking past each other. The sear safety I'm referring to is an after-market addition and not the normal safety activitated by the thumb lever. Here is a top-down photo of a Luger that has had its sear safety removed. The hole on the right is where the rivet held the safety spring. There is a slot milled in the top edge of the side plate and there is another hole beneath it where the spring engaged when the side plate was removed. The purpose of this added safety was to prevent triggering the firing pin once the side plate was removed to field strip the gun. Without it, it is possible to discharge a chambered cartridge after removing the barrel and receiver from the frame. Apparently, it happened more often than the police thought acceptable.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ear_safety.jpg

Sorry about the miscommunication here. I understand what your saying about the safety. I am saying since the sear is not original at one point it may have had the safety on it, then removed at some point later and the sear replaced.

Rack Mate?
 

Ed Tinker brought this pistol to my attention: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=44574139. Here is a somewhat enhanced photo of the grip strap:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/pb777.jpg

It looks like it was the rack mate of the one that is the subject of this thread, at least until one of them was captured by the Russians.

Don are you able to figure out what were the crossed out letters are? I still cannot figure out what they are on mine

Steve,

The original marks as well as the cancellations on both pistols appear identical. It is pure speculation, but I'm beginning to think the marks could have been P.Rh. and that this stood for Polizeischule Rheinprovinz. You won't find a reference to a school with this name anywhere but we do know that a police school was opened in Bonn in 1926. This was about the date that the school names were changed from ones containing province names to ones containing the names of the cities in which they were located. Bonn was in Rheinprovinz (The Rhineland). Perhaps these pistols were initially stamped using the old naming convention and then restamped with the new.

Another point about the GunBroker pistol. The seller does not mention a letter suffix to the serial number (which I read as 8389 despite his reluctance to post the entire number) but the E/WaA66 and E/H proofs on the right side of the receiver indicate this is a 29 DWM that was manufactured in 1929 and would have an s, t or u suffix. This would mean that the speculative P.Rh.777. mark was stamped no earlier than 1929 and that, in The Rhineland at least, the old naming convention was still in use at that time. This is a bit later than I thought.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/p.rh.jpg

This photo has been enlarged, re-contrasted, and turned to negative greyscale to help bring out some of the shadows...

I definitely see the first stamping as "P. Rh." in a script font.

Way to go, John!