Borchardt
 

Hi,

As we all know, there is no authenticated image of Hugo Borchardt known. After reading Datig's Luger Story and studying a photo of Luger Jr. and Sr. at their Berlin shooting club 'Baerenzwinger', I recognized another person on the photo. This man, Gerhard Bock, wrote a manual on pistol use and shooting in 1911, followed by an update in 1920. He himself is pictured in his book, demonstrating some shooting poses.

Moreover, two other Berlin pistol shooters pose in the book and coincidentally they look very much like two other characters on the photo. This leaves one other, famous Baerenzwinger member on the photo unnamed. It's very tempting, especially since his age seems to be that of Luger sr., that this may well be our ilusive mr. Hugo Borchardt.

Tempting, at least....

From his own book "Moderne Faustfeuerwaffen", Gehard Bock:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bock_1.jpg

W. Fitzkow:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/fitzkow.jpg

E. Muncheberg:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/muncheberg.jpg

Gerben,
That certainly is an interesting possibility. Glad you thought of it. Might he also be the rather plain looking fellow in the middle?:confused: :D

Ron,

Yes. He changed his name to Hugo Boardcard :D

Now that's clever! You are a better punster than I am.:bowdown:

Borchardt and Luger detested each other. Hugo was angry about Luger's supposed theft of the Borchardt model and success of the Luger design. There is little likelyhood that these fellows met on agreeable terms. Not impossible of course but.....Jerry Burney

Hi Jerry,

Sorry, but you're wrong here. Although they had some work related disputes, they actually got along quite well personally.

They lived only a few houses away from each other, their wives would frequently visit each other, even long after both Hugo and Georg had died!

I swallow some humble pie! I could swear that's not the story circulating here in the US. Live and learn. I shall always be a student and unfortunately, as soon as I learn it all, I will begin to forget it all...Thanks Gerben. Jerry Burney

Jerry and Gerbin, I have read both accounts... I think it was Walters who stated that they had squabbles and wouldn't talk...


who knows....

;)

Ed

Ed, Jerry,

The best info comes from Datig's revised edition of "the luger pistol", it includes interviews with the Luger family, which I trust a little bit more than John Walter's opinion in this case.

Did you notice on the photo that the only person not holding a luger is the possible Borchardt candidate? ;)

Gerben, Borchardt and the cardboard man! I love these period photo's. Thanks for sharing. A lot of history is lost but it brings it back to see these. Jerry Burney

It has to be him. His locks of hair exceeded supply.

An old post revisited. Not to glorify my previous research, but rather to get up the stand and to tell the 'woops, I got it all wrong' story :)

And who told me I was wrong? Well, August Weiss did, actually. In 1962.

So what did we learn in the mean time:
-Fred Datig 'borrowed' the picture from Gerhard Bock's publication 'Moderne Faustfeuerwaffen und ihr Gebrauch', 3rd edition, published in 1942.

-Unlike Datig, Bock took the trouble to give the proper names of the men pictured and Weiss was kindly enough to point out one of the men and refer to the picture in Bock's book in a letter dating from 1962.

With kind cooperation of Martin Krause (Sauerfan) who provided me with a scan of the page in question, it is now possible to identify the men on the picture, and this time properly:

From left to right:
Georg Luger Senior.
R. Tschoepke.
The cardboard target :) and sitting in front of it is Baurat (title) Meyer.
Prof. Rauch.
Heinrich Hoffmann.
Georg Luger Junior.

...well, at least I got some of them right initially (Junior, Senior and Hugo Boardcard aka the target)

I was just reading that section of Datig's book last night.

- WOT

Well, in defense of Datig I have to say that his approach was good. He had access to some of the key players of the pre-1945 Parabellum era and he toured Germany and Switzerland extensively. With the access we now have to archive material that comes directly from some of those key players it is possible to retrace the steps of pioneers like Datig.

Although his work is dated in some aspects, especially in the 'contract luger' department, the basic info about DWM and the people involved is very trustworthy.

He didn't happen to mention the Russian 1906 Luger contract, did he??? :rolleyes:

Don't be russian to any conclusions now...

Datig only, correctly, mentions that Russia tested the pistol and that Bulgaria used the pistol.
So nothing exciting, although, but proven nonetheless, unlike some theories :)

Heh heh :)

- WOT

Vlim

Great info

Quick question. What kind of pistols are those gents posing with in the shooting stance pictures?
The third pic might be a luger?

Thanks
Bob

Vlim,

That's a very interesting story.
Very pleasent to read at morning before going to work.

Thanks,

Douglas

Yes, what are Muncheburg and Bock shooting??? I don't see a toggle... :confused:

Well, I think it's time to revive this rather old thread, with good reason:

The quality of the Luger group photo was quite bad, it was first published in the 1940s editions of 'Moderne Faustfeuerwaffen' and probably lifted from that book to be reused in Fred Datig's 'Luger' book.

Just recently, I was able to lay my hands on one of the original prints of the photograph that was used in Bock's and Datig's books. Since these old negatives are very, very good and sharp, it's possible to show the entire view in much more detail.

It is possible to work out that Georg Luger Jr. is holding a luger pistol equipped with a toggle lock, while Heinrich Hoffmann is holding one without a toggle lock. It is also clear that Baurat Meyer (sitting) is holding a revolver of some sort, as well as his doggy.

Georg Luger Sr. is only armed with an umbrella.

what does the cardboard man look like in the photo?

Flat and reasonably white :D

When looking at images of Mr. August Meyer, it appears that somewhere during the identification process 2 persons were swapped.
The man who is holding the cigar looks like August Meyer, while the man who is sitting down and was identified as Meyer doesn't look like him.

So most probably, the sitting man is Prof. Tschoepke and the man with the cigar is Baurat Meyer.

Gerben,
You started this thread with “…there is no authenticated image of Hugo Borchardt known”. That may very well still be the case. But in 2012 Mobray Publishing put out a large format (8 ½”X11”) paperback book “The Evolution of Military Automatic Pistols / Self-loading Pistol Designs of Two World Wars and the Men who Invented Them” by Gorden Bruce. There are 24 designs presented with biographical sketches of the inventors. The first article is on Hugo Borchardt and includes two photos that are identified as Hugo. I was very excited with this revelation and after a bit of digging through Mobray I was able to contact the author. He of course did not know me so he was not very forthcoming with information, but he did avow the photos were of Borchardt and that he had acquired them from an un-named source in Poland several years ago. That was the extent of the information I could obtain, so there remains a question if these photos are actually Borchardt, but they might be.
Ron

Dear All,
This topic already pointed out that the personal relationship between Georg Luger and Borchardt was very bad for well known reason.

Also the relationship between Paul Mauser and Georg Luger was very bad.

On the contrary the relationship between Paul Mauser and Borchardt was a good one.

In our last book: Paul Mauser - His Life, Company, and Handgun Development 1838 - 1914

we discussed about the relationship of Paul Mauser with Luger and Borchardt based upon original documents and letters.

I think it is a very good read and I am sure you will find it interesting.

Additionally, you will see a handmade toggle drawing made by Hugo Borchardt and kept in the Paul Mauser Archive.

Also funny, you will see in an Original Mauser sale book, the sale of a Borchardt pistol, most probably a pistol acquired by Mauser for testing purposes and then sold when not necessary anymore.

Good read,

Mauro

Mauro and Gerben's book includes the letter that introduced Luger to Mauser, and some hard evidence of what Mauser really thought of Luger... At the time, Mauser was paying Luger royalties on an invention originally created by Mauser... That's an interesting story...

Thank You All~ and the late, Fred Datig~