DWM Rust Bluing Formula??
 

I am refinishing a shooter, mismatched and hot blued previously, and would like to match the original DWM rust blue. I have rust blued muzzle loaders in the past with Pilkingtons, but I understand the DWM blue would be different. Does anyone have the DWM rust blue formula?

And I need information on how to do the straw colors if anyone has the tables and instructions.

Thanks for your time.

Chuck

Send me you email address and I will attach my instructions for straw...and if you find a good formula,please let me know.

My e-mail is ccam61@aol.com.

I appreciate the information. And I will pass along any information I get on the formula. I have access to several different acids and other chemicals, so I could probably mix the brew, if I knew the components.

I think there is a way to send e-mails through the forum, but I have not explored that yet.

Thanks for the information.

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

If you go to Howard's last posting, you will see four little icons along the bottom.

If you click on the little icon of two guys holding hands (I guess luger collectors can be close...;) ) next to an envelop, it will link you to send Howard an email...

Give it a try...

shaking hands Pete, I like you, but "holding" hands isn't my cup of tea.... :D
But I'd shake your hand any day (10 second rule applies) ;)

Ed, you have to realize Pete is from KA, strange things happen there, lol!!

Looks like I am drilling a dry hole here. I am not looking for anyones secret formula. Maybe a hint about the composition.

Does more Nitric acid result in the color of the DWM pieces? Or is the concentration of Hcl resposibile for this? More Nitric or more Hycrochloric?

I guess I could do a lot of experimentation and find out for myself. But with the amount of research and knowledge, I thought it might be somewhat public knowledge.

Chuck,

I have sent you a name/contact of a fellow you might ask.

I suspect folks that have a formula want to keep it to themselves...especially if they are in the business and make a living offering restoration services... and/or they might be afraid a really good formula will just get into the hands of folks doing Waffenfabrik-USA boosting work.

Regards,

Pete...:typing:

Chuck,

How does the Pilkington's turn out when you use it? Is it blacker or bluer than original? I had thought about trying the Pilkingtons.

Thanks,
another Chuck

Ed,

Regarding that little icon...

If those folks were shaking hands, they would be shown in profile and standing face-to-face. The icon shows two guys standing side-by-side with hands linked...like they were walking down the street...you see that in parts of California and even Amarillo, TX alot...(I hear Amarillo is No. 2 behind SF in this matter...)

p.s. If you shake hands for 10 seconds...well then you may need to move to CA...:D

Chuck
You may want to try the book, Firearm Blueing and Browning by R.H. Angier.
The price is about $20.00
Good luck
Ed

Seems I remember reading in one of the Luger books that at DWM they hung the frames below the holes in the urinal for a few days to achieve that beautiful blue.:rockon:

Hugh,

Did they mention how many days they hung there? Do I have to drink a lot of that heavy German beer at near room temp, or would ice cold American light do the trick? Seems like the light beer would result in a lighter color. Maybe that is how they got the straw color.

Ed, Pete,

I followed up on both suggestions. The book is now on order and I have sent a message to the contact. Thanks to both.

Excuse me, I have to go get a beer.

Hugh,
its good to see you back on the board...you home now ?

Jim

Jim,

Nope still in La. I am supposed to call the power co Tuesday to get an estimate of when I will have electricity at home. Indications are that it will be on this week, and if so we will return then. :rolleyes:

I have been doing some reading in the book mentioned above. A lot of information written in a verbose style of Engish, but very interesting. Nothing in there that would point me towards the luger blue although it does give a Bern formula and some German origin formulas. There are limited attempts to describe the results, but nothing to tell me the subtle differences in the resulting colors.

I will now embark on a controlled experiment on old gun barrels to see what kind of results I get with different formulas and preps. Since no one offerd me a secret formula in off-forum communication and swore me to secrecy, I could offer the results on the forum. Anyone interested in the rusults?

I am very much interested, on or off LF....please let me know.

Chuck,

Try to geld hold of Joachim Goertz's 'Die Pistole 08'. He discusses the blueing technique and some recipe-sources in that book. Should be of interest to you.

Rust Blue Formula
 

Well, I finally got some time to do some experimenting over the Holidays.

I blued some barrel segments using four different formulas. The picture I have attached shows three of the formulas and two lugers for comparison.

From right to left is an original 1923 commercial in excellent original condition. Barrel segment 1 was done with Pilkingtons, Segment 2 was done with Wakon Bay, and Segment 3 was done with a modified Bern formula that I mixed up myself. The Artillery on the right is a refinish by Thor.

The Bern formula (slightly modified) is primarily a nitric acid base with no hydrochloric acid in the formula. The other two have both Nitric and Hydchloric and I found they were much more agressive than the Bern.

In fact I would say the Bern is much more friendly to proof marks than the other two.

The picture was taken outdoors in natural light and I hope you can see the difference. In my opinion the Pilkingtons is too black. The Bern, IMO, comes very close to the DWM color. The color in the highlights is the same light blue grey color when examined with reflected light. I am not sure how to explain that, or if that makes any sense to anyone.

Anyway, what is the opinion of those who care to take a look?

Chuck,

Impressive results. Really like the Bern formula results, although it's difficult to see the subtleties on a photograph.

Real interesting, I would like to get together sometime and discuss these processes with you, I like the mod Bern method as best as I can tell from the pictures. It would be a days drive over, and I would like to see this prosses in action.....very good work.

Any chance of getting copies of the Bern (both origional and modified) formulae, either posted on the forum or sent via e-mail?

I have gotten another formula (WW I German Arsenal) that contains the same ingredients with one additional chemical and different quantities. I have that chemical on order and will do another piece when I get it in. The Bern formula is definitely on the right track.

For those who are following this thread, the Bern is the browning formula in the book by R. H. Angier (Firearm Bluing and Browning). It says it is a browning formula, but the only difference between brown and blue is boiling the browned piece. The boiling turns the brown to blue.

The explanation in the book is rather long and offers substutions. I substuted where I thought I understood the meaning. The results indicate to me that my guesses were correct.

As I said earlier, since no one swore me to secrecy, I will publish the formula and results on this forum. I am not quite through with my experiment and research, so bear with me.

Chuck, I read your profile, I think you have a foot (or two) up on me in chemicals! :D

Thanks, Chuck, can hardly wait (just hope I can get the chemicals I will need over here).

Chuck, regarding "boiling the browned piece" - do you notice any difference in the hardness / durability of the surface between the brown and the blue? Does the brown, for instance, scratch easily - like, with a fingernail? I have several older rifles that would look better in brown, if the finish is hard enough.

I have had several private messages asking for the formula, so I will not wait for the other formula results. Those who wish, can try this out and see the results for themselves.

Bern (Swiss)
Browning Solution

.1183 liters Distilled water

1.8 grams Copper Sulphate

12.5 grams Solution ferric chloride (29%)

7.2 grams Nitric Acid D.1.42

2.5 grams Alcohol (IPA)

I have also been asked about availability of the ingredients. Three are fairly common. The distilled water you can find at your local grocery store. I would recommend this as tap water has chlorine and I am not sure what effect that would have on the results. I also use distilled water for the boiling.

Copper sulphate should be available at your local pool supply store. And the Alcohol is nothing more than common rubbing alcohol. This was supplied for the "Spirit of Nitre" called for in the book. I believe the author said this could even be omitted without a significant difference in results. It is easy to get, so why not. We buy it by the 55 gallon drum. Do not substitute single malt scotch. This is a different kind of alcohol for an entirely different application.

The two remaining ingredients may be more difficult to find. Since I have a supply here in the plant, I never went looking. Ferric Chloride and Nitric acid are corrosive and considered hazardous Materials. These may or may not present a problem in locating them.

It takes very little to do a gun, so by the time you go to the trouble to get this stuff, you may have a 10 lifetime supply. I may have a solution for you if you really want to try your hand at this.

I plan on mixing up some extra and packaging them in 4 oz bottles. These I would make available to forum members at my cost plus shipping. I am going to have to check on shipping costs for such small quantities. There is a Haz Mat surcharge for larger shipments that run $20.00. I am checking on this. I imagine this will be a very limited interest group, so mass production will not be in the cards.

I also have written up some instructions on application if anyone is interested. Anyone getting a sample of this formula must promise to hand finish the piece. A buffing wheel may be used as long as you stand at least 50 feet away from said wheel. More distance is recommended.

When I get the next formula going, I will post pictures of the results.

Warning - please see the warning on page 3 of this thread if you are mixing these chemicals.

Ponyman,

On pieces that I have browned I have never seen them scratch easily. The final carding I usually do with an old sock (cotton) and then oil. The browning I used was Wakon Bay and I understand it is no longer available.

They will all scratch with something metal if you are determined to scratch them, but normal handling will not be a problem. A good brown job turns a rich color of deep (dark) brown and does not look like the piece has been left out in the rain.

Chuck,
Is the decimal point is in the right place for ".1183 liters Distilled water"?:confused: :)

Yes, for liters. 118.3 ml. This is about the equivalent of 100 ccm or exactly 1/4 us Pint. Our lab measurements are in liters so I converted for what I had.

1/4 US Pint is what I should have included in the formula. Sorry. The book also included the weights in grs. But I am not sure if our powder measure grains are the same as what the author uses in the book.

For those who would like to measure rather than weigh:

1/4 US pint Distilled water

1.8 grams Copper Sulfate (this is a solid)

9.0 ml Ferric Chloride (29%)

5.15 ml Nitric Acid

3.15 ml IPA (Alcohol)

Hope this helps.

Not sure how the average person can get Nitric Acid these days. It is also used to make Nitroglycerin and ammonium nitrate.

Ferric Chloride is the stuff Radio Shack sells as a circuit board echant. I have heard it is good for removing existing bluing also.

A while back I was looking into home wine making. Copper Sulfate is used occasionally to treat wines that smell bad. I think it could be purchased from a winemaking supply house.

-- Dan

Hi,

Did some searching and it appears that over here in the Netherlands nitric acid is used as a cleaning substance in the dairy business.

So we'd have to get to a dairy farm, a vinyard and an electronics shop to get most stuff. That's going to be an interesting experience :)

I know you can get small quantities of chemicals from Lab Supply companies. Should have one of these in most large metro areas. Shipping of corrosive chemicals is expensive, even in 4 oz bottles.

I have some made up if anyone is interested. Unfortunately there is a $20.00 haz mat charge for domestic shipping and $60.00 for international. If this doesn't scare you off, let me know. My company is a known shipper and we can ship haz mat world-wide in the post 9/11 world.

But then again, a treasure hunt could be fun.

For those who are wondering why I would do this, the forum members saved me a lot of money. I owe them some favors.

Gerben, Do we ask for "Udder Scrubber" or "Tit Dip" at the dairy?

Chuck,
El Paso is a large metro area, but it is cosmopolitanly challenged. Goods and services are woefully underdeveloped. Therefore a treasure hunt here would be frustrating to say the least.
I would like to purchase a bit of your elixir. Please send me a PM with the particulars for ordering.
Thanks,
Ron

Ron S,

Just ask for the stuff they use to make black patches on those white cows :D

All of those chemicals are available on the internet. Use Google and enter the chemical name followed by supply ie; nitric acid supply... I just checked, they are there and for sale, ain't cheap tho.

When I was just a young'un back on the farm.We used nitric acid to clean the milk cooler and milking machines. It was about the only thing that would remove milkstone. You might find it at a farm supply store.