unit Mark 1920
 

Hi

Can you please explain the following unit mark on the grip strap on my DWM
Double date, 1920-1920.

â??S.Kg.4.63.1141.â?�


the-- .4.63.--has been over stamped whit a X.

Thanks from
Sej-gun.

Jes,

Schutzenpolizei K�¶nig 4th district. weapon # 63. X'd out and weapon #1141 added.

Ron

Ron
Thanks very much!!:)
regards
Jes

Jes,

Since Ron has some difficulties with spelling :), I'll add my two cents:

These marks are from the Schutzpolizei (Large city uniformed police) of the K�¶nigsberg district of the Prussian Province of East Prussia. There are actually two marks. The first is S.Kg.4.63 and represents weapon no. 63 of the 4th Hundertschaft (Company) within this district. This mark is in accordance with marking orders issued in 1922. The second mark is S.Kg.1141. This is in accordance with orders issued in 1932 that eliminated the designation of the Hundertschaft.

I am building a database of these marks and would appreciate knowing the serial number of this pistol, including letter suffix, if any. Thanks very much.

Hi Don.
Thanks for the answer.
Is it correct that the Luger was started into the army, and then came into the Polizei in 1922, and got a new number in 1932, after that the Luger must have entered the army again, and come up to Denmark (1940-45). It got Police rework proof marks, on the Receiver, right side. Left side and front of frame: #1699 n, and under the n is there a small letter, maybe an e ??. (The same on the barrel)
Thanks from
Jes.
:)

Don,

Thanks for correcting me. I was at work and couldn't remember if it was K�¶nig or K�¶nigsberg. After I entered it I was wondering....

I know, I know, I said that I would leave police markings alone, but I have to taper off. Cold turkey just doesn't suit me. :)

Ron

How about Wild Turkey?

Well, Well, we're talkin' a whole different set of circumstances there. Elk season is rapidly approaching. And everybody knows you can't properly set up an Elk camp without the proper preparation, and a touch of anti-freeze.

Lord only knows what lays in wait for the unwarey, and uninsulated Elk hunter.:biggulp:

I'll find out Nov. 5th in Colorado, if I get to cold I'm sure the Tinker's will take me in, now if I can get Ed to give me a foot rub?

sorry, don't give those nasty foot rubs! :D

Hey Howard, I went up to Mount Rushmore about two weeks ago and on the way back I picked up a copy of the 2005 Northwest Colorado Hunting Guide in Craig CO. at a restaurant. It's chocked full of goodies about Colorado hunting, areas, harvest histories, outlooks, outfitters, lots of things. Drop me a PM with your addy and it's yours if you want it.

Thanks Herb, ashamed to say I hired out a big time guide, if I can get my big rump up the mountians, all I got to do is pull the trigger.....sad when you get old, but thanks for the offer....

Terry says she'd love to see you guys, but she might be hesitant if ya'll drive up with an Elk strapped across the hood! :D Kind'a against the nazi housing association where we live! ;)


Ed

Jes,

The suffix(es) for the serial number are puzzling. A 1920/1920 double-dated DWM should be from DWM's 1920 production for military & police. The suffix should be none, a or b. I'm not sure I understand the reworking in Denmark. I wonder if this may have originally had no suffix and the other letters were added later. I really don't know. Could we see a photo of the markings on the bottom of the barrel?

I forgot to ask if this pistol has or had sear and/or magazine safeties.

I'll get in touch Ed, as time gets closer....on the way there, there will no elk across the hood as I will be on my way to hunt, or if I catch ya on the way home, it will be cut up and wrapped, in my ice chest.....however I hope to have a nice set of horns that will not fit under the bed cover.....

Don
I hope this is better.
There is a "n" and a "b" ??.
jes

Jes,

This pistol has some strange markings! The "b" is consistent with a 1920-dated DWM but I would have expected it to be where the "n" is below the "1699." Is the mark below the "n" on the front of the frame possibly a "b"? It is possible that some part of the letter is missing because of the curvature of the frame.

I would be interested in seeing a photo of the dates on the top of the chamber.

Hi Don
Here is a photo of the camber marks, they are as you see not identical ??.
Could it be, that this gun, first was a commercial gun, and after this, it went to the Police ??. I think that the mark under the "n" on front of the frame is a "b", same as on the barrel.
Regards Jes

Jes , the lower 1920 is the year of manufacture. The upper is the Weimar property stamp.

The proofs/acceptance marks on the right side of the receiver should be a combination or grouping of the following.






http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/103_0303.jpg

Taken from Jan Still's Weimar Lugers.

Jes,

In addition to the proof mark information requested by Ron, it will help knowing if this gun has or had sear and/or magazine safeties. If you are not familiar with these devices, the photo below should help. The upper arrow points to the sear safety and the lower arrow to the magazine safety. If you see a slot cut in the frame as in the photo, it will confirm that there was a magazine safety installed and you will not need to remove the grip. A good photo of the left side of the gun, taken from a slightly downward angle would allow us to judge, as well.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...agsafeties.jpg

Hi Ron and Don
Is that what you want??
No sear or mag safety, correct??
Photo: seen from left side. sat in above proffs from the right side.
Thanks very much for helping me:cheers:
Regards, Jes

Jes,

Your photo is fuzzy, but are those the proofs? If so, they should be on the opposite (right) side. The serial number should be in that location. This is getting strange.

Ron

No it is not the proof, you see the reciver from left, on the photo
it is the number 1699. the proff is on the right side, (sat ind)
Regards Jes

Jes,

OK, I'm ready to go out on a limb. I believe this to be one of the Lugers produced by DWM in 1920 for military and police use. I don't see the commercial c/N nitro proof on the left side of the receiver and the acceptance stamps and small parts markings seem appropriate. I believe the assigned serial number was 1699b, which put it in the third 10k of guns produced that year. See Jan Still's Weimar Lugers, pp. 1 & 15.

This gun was mistakenly property stamped 1920 although it would not have been required since it already had a 1920 date identifying it as govenment propery. Quite a few of the 1920 and 1921 dated DWMs were "double dated."

I suspect that this gun originally went to the Prussian police in the K�¶nigsberg district. It does not have a sear or mag safety suggesting that it was removed from police service prior to the implementation of the 1933 order mandating these devices on police Lugers.

My main sources of concern with this identification are the placement of the suffix "b" above the serial number on the barrel and the presence of an "n" on the barrel and frame. I don't know what the "n" signifies.

This is all I know and more. I hope it helps.

Hi again
Could the â?�nâ?�, be a mistake, and then they have given a â?�bâ?� over the number, instate??
Regards, Jes

Well, my limb is starting to crack! Jes found this thread on Jan Still's forum: http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4652 reporting 1920 DWM #5335. This also refers to #4134n in Jan's Weimar Lugers, p. 140.

Ross Murchison reported 1920 DWM #7138n in the latest Auto Mag.

I have queried my database and come up with quite a few more. Adding those from replies in Jan Still's forum results in the following list. With the exception of #2977n, all have police unit marks and/or sear safeties but this is probably skewed by my database containing only police unit marked examples. These include police units in Prussia, Saxony and Thuringia.

1699n (and b)
3108n
3176n
4605n
4134n
4647n
5335n
6655n
6938n
7138n
9483n

From the range of numbers it looks like there were 10,000 of these produced. Any more out there?

Hi again
I now had measure my chamber on the DWM 1920/1920 Doublet Dated,
(22,24mm), and it shows that it is 0,21 mm smaller than my Mauser
S/42 1937, (22,45mm), it looks like that some body have grinding on the
chamber before it got its 1920/1920 stamp, it got Police rework stamps
on right side of receiver.
I also had the gun X-ray`t on the chamber, and on the right side on the
receiver, I hope to se any marks left in the steel. The results of that work
is: Nothing to see!! on the X-ray pictures.
I think this gun is a Imperial Luger?, from 1913 to 1918 ( it got hold open)
that came into rework and then served the Police in Konigsberg, and again
changed to the army and ended up in Denmark at WW2. That will explain
the n suffix on the gun????. (only ns,a,b, suffix in 1920, Jan C. Still Books)
Some comment will be great!!!
Regards, Sej-gun.

Jes,

I don't have anything else to add to the discussion of your gun but I do believe there really was an "n-suffix" block of Lugers produced by DWM in 1920. I have no idea why this suffix was chosen.

I am not much help on unit marks, but wouldn't Jeff Noll's book have the answer to this question? I don't have that book in my Luger library, but perhaps someone here does.

Hi

Don, I think you got a point on all that â?�nâ?� block Lugers that is known.
Could the explanation be that DWM got a lot of â?�nâ?� block half built
Lugers at the end of WW1, full range 10.000 guns, and then use them in 1920, I guess that they were at production to the end of WW1?, and there must be some Lugers who was not finished at the DWM factory (and Erfurt) in 1918??.
Anybody knows what was the last suffix that came out of DWM in 1918??.
I hope that somebody have the book of Jeff Noll, and then will cast some
lights on this case, as John wrote.
Maybe we never got the full explanation of this â??nâ?� suffix.
Thanks to all
Regards, Sej-gun
:)

I'm a novice at Luger production, especially in the Imperial era. Someone else needs to address this speculation.

Jes,

DWM production in 1918 is reported into the w suffix range; Erfurt production that year is reported into the t suffix, with the possibility of reports into the u suffix (Still, "Imperial Lugers" p.15).

According to the German Army instructions for marking P08 dated 1910, revised up to 1914 (G�¶rtz & Bryans, "German Small Arms Markings" pp.111-114), if the construction of these Lugers had reached the point of being serial-numbered on the frame, they would also have had their parts numbered. This numbering would then be on the exposed faces of the parts, rather than in the hidden, commercial style. In additon, if they originated at Erfurt, the parts would all have the Erfurt Inspectors' marks applied.

--Dwight