|
1906/24 Bern in 9mm
Just acquired the subject Swiss (my first Swiss) and was wondering how many of these are known in 9mm. I got it from Ralph Shattuck and forgot to ask. One of his notes indicates only two were known in the early '90s. Ralph did tell me only 100 were ever manufactured.
With all the collective knowledge on the Forum, I thought someone might be able to enlighten me. |
Hi Chuck,
It would be really helpfu if you could take detailed, in-focus, close-up photos of the witness marks of your barrel/receiver (near the lug) and of the barrel's serial number. If you cannot post them, send me your photos and I can get them posted for you. pebbink@pacbell.net |
Hi Chuck,
Your report of a M1906/24 W+F Bern luger in 9mm is a surprise, but then, again, not one. I have noticed 1-2 '24 Bern's on Ralph Shattuck's tables at the past few Reno gun shows that were un-questionably reblued lugers and the origin of the barrels was a question; at least in my mind. I would guess such a '24 Bern in 9 mm has had a barrel replacement since it left the factory in CH. I have 6-7 books dedicated to Swiss lugers and none mentions the existence of a '24 Bern in 9 mm. I would challenged the claim that there are 100 such lugers in 9 mm...reportedly made to you by Ralph. If 100 '24 Berns in 9mm were factory made...why did the authors that did extensive research not find evidence of such pieces...??? Author V. Bobba metions two possible 9mm lugers in the M1906 DWM Swiss cross/shield variety. Authors Reinhart/Rhyn in their book "Faustfeuerwaffen II" shows one of these cross/shields on pages 78-79. Shattuck is correct in citing 2 examples in 9 mm...but these are M1906 DWM Swiss cross/shields and not '24 Bern lugers. These authors and the others do not ever mention a '24 Bern in 9mm that left the factory that way. As you may not know, exacting factory records were left at the Bern factory from 1900 through 1947; through which many of these authors scoured during their research for their books. There were some transitional/prototype lugers made after the '24 production run that have features of both '24 Berns and '29 Berns. Those are documented to run from # 33090 through 33093 and more recently have been extended by a magazine article in Italy beyond # 33093. At least # 33092 is photographed in Datig's old book "Monograph IV - The Swiss Variations" as being in 9 mm. Again, there is no previously published evidence of a true '24 Bern in 9mm that left the Swiss factory that way. Regarding the M1929 Bern lugers; more and more 9mm specimens have been showing up at USA gun shows (I saw 4 on one table at the big Tulsa show a year or so ago...)...none in gun fairs in Europen during the same tiem frame. Although a few 9mm M1929's left the factory that way and are well documented...it is a sad conclusion that Waffenwafrik-USA is busy refitting M1929 Swiss lugers with 9 mm barrels. Maybe now these mechanics have moved on to '24 Berns. Look forward to seeing your photos... |
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...rn_9mm_003.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...rn_9mm_005.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...rn_9mm_002.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...rn_9mm_004.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...rn_9mm_007.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...rn_9mm_006.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...rn_9mm_013.jpg I finally got some decent pictures and it took a while to figure out how to make them small enough to upload. I hope the pictures turn out. I was told the luger is pictured V. Bobba's book on page 145. I don't have this book yet/ |
First of all, the designation â??06/24 Swissâ? is totally erroneous and I wish people would stop using it. The Swiss began tooling-up/producing their own Luger in 1917, with the first issue beginning in 1918. Since this Luger is of the 1906 pattern, the proper designation should be â??1906 Waffenfabrik Bernâ?, or â??Mod. 06 W+Fâ?, the official designation by the Swiss.
Your Luger is a VERY early production 1906 W+F. The serial numbering of these Lugers picked up sequentially after the DWM production with #15216, so your Luger would be the 58th produced by the Swiss. I find it very unlikely that at the beginning of production the Swiss would suddenly toss in a 9mm example. As Pete has pointed out, serious authors on Swiss Lugers have not indicated that there was such a variant produced. Since you do not have Bobbaâ??s book, I will tell you that your Luger is not shown on page 145, or any other page. Other than the 9mm caliber of your Luger, all other aspects appear to be totally correct for an original Mod. 06 W+F, including the peculiar â??steppedâ? breechblock. I leave the determination of the authenticity of this piece to you. P.S. I hope the forest fires earlier this year did not affect you or your property, |
Hi Chuck,
Is there a chance you can take four (4) really good, detailed, close-up and in-focus photos of : 1. The serial number on the barrel. 2. The serial number on the front of the frame directly above the trigger guard. 3. A photo of the underside of the receiver near the lug...where there should be a witness mark between the shoulder of the barrel and where is screws into the receiver. 4. The small Swiss cross on the left side of the barrel. If you want to send me big jpegs, I would be happy to resize them for you and post them...send to pebbink@pacbell.net Regards, Pete... |
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...n_bbl_mark.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1906_bern_012.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1906_bern_011.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1906_bern_014.jpg The picture of the witness mark ? is poor as I lost my expensive camera. But there is nothing on the bottom of the receiver except the 75. No other marks are visable. I hope these pictures present what you ahve requested. |
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload..._011_copy1.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload..._012_copy1.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload..._014_copy1.jpg Sorry, the last three pictures were misspelled by me. |
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...rn_9mm_011.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...rn_9mm_012.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...rn_9mm_014.jpg Plese ignore the blank paictures. I think I have this figured out now. Hopefully. |
|
I called and asked for my money back on this piece. I was told it was authentic and was given two references to prove it was authentic. I was told with these references, it was worth a lot more than I had paid for it. And the money had already been sent to the person consigning it.
One reference has been commented on in this thread. To make matters worse I also purchased a 1914 Navy a short while before this Swiss. I submitted the Navy to another forum for evaluation. Check out the gunboards.com/luger forum and look at the new collectors submissions. Between these two purchases, I am out a lot of money. I noticed an obvious lack of comments from members on this forum. You must all be laughing your behinds off at my stupidity. As I said on the other forum, any of you have a bridge you would like to sell? Or maybe a mint 45 cal test luger in serial number 1? |
Chuck,
I suspect that if you had posted the Navy here you would have gotten comparable commentary. The fact is, Swiss Lugers are a fairly rarified collecting specialty, and there are many fewer people who are qualified to comment. Please check your private messages. --Dwight |
Nobody is laughing on either forum. We have all paid our dues for a Luger education, some of us quite expensively.
Your last set of photos was the final clincher. Since the receiver lug does not match the pistol, it would follow that the barrel is also an add-on. By placing your Lugers on these forums you have contributed to the education of others, and we can only hope that, armed with the information you have received, your reward will come in the form of a refund from the seller. |
I did not like how the "75" (or is it a "73"...?) on the barrel lug appears to be up-side-down, I did not like the different font of the barrel serial numbers and how those barrel numbers were stamped crooked. I cannot see any patina/oxidation along the gun's surface as well...
|
Chuckc, You have probably heard from the most prominent Swiss collectors on this board. The rest of us are quiet in sympathy.
You may have legal recourse, but you may lose maore going that route than eating our loss. I would expect the navy is worth more than you think sold for exactly what it is. And the Swiss is a really cool looking 9mm shooter. |
Pete et al, Rebarrelling is not the only way to make a 9mm out of a 7.65. I once owned a M1900 that had the "original" barrel, but so professionally relined to 9mm, that it was hard to tell. Even more difficult, would be if the bore was recut. TH
|
Chuck
Iâ??ve read the threads on both forums - I am not laughing and instead, I am steamed. Iâ??ve been collecting Lugers for a bit over a year and, though I have collected other arms for decades, Iâ??ve never had so many close calls as in Luger World. The good news, however, is these forums. It is the place for advice, vetting a recent purchase and buying / selling in confidence at a leisurely pace. To these folks, experiences such as yours hurt everyone. The thing is, I have increasingly found that you have to check out pieces with the type of scrutiny that Pete and Dwight (to name just a couple here on the forums) do and there is not one person or handy reference with that type of knowledge of all the Lugers out there.The only way to do this is to have a good digital camera with close up capability, basic photo software like Photoshop Elements and get your purchase on the forums within 24 hours of purchase. In my area I have met a couple long time collector-dealers of the same generation as the fellow in AZ and heard stories about him that will make your toes curl. This type of practice does an extreme disservice to the hobby and I think anyone that has been bitten should be pro-active in putting a stop to it. I once bought an item that was faked from one of our largest Luger dealers in the region. I returned it a day later but when I asked why I was not told it was a fake (an obvious one â?? but at a genuine price) I was told, â??I didnâ??t ask.â? This is but one example of type of thinking that an unscrupulous dealer will use to rationalize this type of business practice. In your shoes I would consider pursuing the first step of a legal action, which is to have a knowledgeable attorney prepare and send a â??first contactâ? letter. This shows you are serious about going the distance. This letter should refer to the serious legal consequences of knowingly dealing in firearms that have had alterations to the serial numbers and/or are miss-represented through the manipulation of serial numbers. The possibility of losing and/or having ones federal license(s) under scrutiny can be a real motivator. You could also hang onto the guns- they sound pretty neat even being what they are and probably sell them for what they are at some future date for near what you paid. In any case,no matter what you do I think you can benefit from this experience and not come out too badly. In the future, I would stick to the forums or reputable dealers. For example - Simpsons, though they surcharge (lately, it seems) up to 30% are at least selling honest guns. One piece I bought from them I was able to trade/sell back six months later at the same price. There are other similar dealers. Like the other forumites, I wish you some satisfaction when all this is done and hope you stay in the hobby and have better experiences. Bob |
I really do appreciate all that has been said. I have found that my biggest mistake is not reading each and every submission on these forums before I ever purchased my first piece. There are hints and warnings at various places. My second biggest mistake, trusting the claims of such a famous collector. Never thought it would turn out this way.
On my future in collecting, I must be almost famous by now. But a notoriety similar to that of Monicas. Not a great start. I am thinking about taking up tournament poker. That seems like a safer venue for beginners such as myself. Now, does a straight beat a full house? |
Chuckc: You said, "I am thinking about taking up tournament poker. That seems like a safer venue for beginners such as myself. Now, does a straight beat a full house?"
The way I play poker, I'd have to say yes. Can I join the game? Welcome aboard and here's hoping things turn out okay for you. |
Chuck et al,
Once again we see the ever increasing tuition at Luger U. I certainly hope you are successful in recouping some of your $$ if not all. Read, study, examine and ALWAYS assume the gun is bad until otherwise demonstrated. Tom A |
Here is a nice full view of the luger in question, that Chuck sent to me :
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/chucks_3.jpg.jpg |
Chuck.. Do not be hard on yourself. Allof us who have been in this luger collecting for a long time have like you paid our dues. We just emerge mayber a little bit smarter or at least more leery. Just don't give up or think your alone. Most of us are just not as up front about it as you. Regards and happy collecting. Bill.
|
I contacted the seller and he agreed to allow a return for a full refund. I did that today and the transaction was smooth and friendly.
I posted a like response on the gunboards.com/luger forum and added my call for a CD based book updated with better color pictures and variations. Such an undertaking may very well be the project of luger collectors associated with these forums. At any rate, an updated reference is badly needed. AT least by me, and I would venture to say some others as well. Most the references available seem to be 30 plus years old or in the coffee table category. A CD can hold a lot of information, indexed in many different ways. And it certainly needs to address methods of detecting refinshes, copys, alterations, etc. And a CD based book would avoid the high costs associated with publishing a traditional book. Thanks to all who offerd input and support. But just to be safe, I am reading "Power Poker" by Doyle Brunson. |
Congratulations, Chuck...
Good guys do win from time to time ! |
Bob
What is Simpson's E-mail address or Web site. I am new to the forum and would like to look at their Lugers, Thanks. Tom |
|
Thankyou very much.
Tom |
Quote:
two eyes! I have to fess up, no bluffing, that I guess I should take my first Luger purchase apart now. You can guess where I bought it (with no worries about its authenticity.) I did find the grips nonmatching, but considered that a non-issue because I read somewhere that some Lugers had non-matching grips. (two-eyed) Jack Hiles |
Grips match, except for some Commercial guns which are unmarked.
--Dwight |
I just disassembled my 1936 S/42 that Ralph Shattuck sold me last December. when I was as gullable as anybody could possibly be. I had read John Walter's The Luger Story and Charles Kenyon's Lugers at Random which in this small mind of mine had made me an instant expert on Lugers. There was NO way I could get taken; not with all the knowledge I had in the many gigabytes of the Hiles brain.
Upon a gracious greeting into Ralph's Luger room; (I have No idea why he would share such a treasure with ME), my tongue was tied into square knots. Streams of drool dribbled from the corners of my jaw that itself had dropped to lie on my late 40ish six pack of a gut. Gigabytes of The Story at Random, or is it random Stories of Kenyon by Walters Chronkite whizzed past my mouth, leaving me speechless and dumbstruck. At this point, I might as well have gone to a local pawn Shop to be sold The Rarest Swiss- Simson-Krieghoff-.45 Artillery with matching Holster Stock, one of a kind, belonged to Hitler himself and never fired Luger! But this is where things changed for. I found a man who shared his life's passion with me for over 3 hours only to sell a single, not so rare, but exquisite to my opened eyes S/42. So overwhelmed was I that I was afraid to open my mouth to allow the droll to drip anymore, but Ralph went through the education process as I am sure he has done time and time again over the years. He didn't know me from Adam and had no reason to believe I could afford even the modest gun I bought. You see, a Greenhorn like me armed with the books I had read, thinking I was somewhat knowledgable in the subjest of lugers, is the easiest targets to sell. Ralph was aware of that and did nothing to discourage me or take advantage of the situation. Nor has he ever neglected to respond to any of my many stupid questions I posed to him long before I knew of The Luger Forum. Now you people have to put up with my stupid questions and I can allow Ralph to relax in his room of memeories and enjoy his collection. Why would Ralph intentionally subvert his reputaion to sell a gun he didn't even own? He did say the gun was consigned and if he wanted to make money, wouldn't he be better off selling one of his own beauties? I think he probably took the word of another not so knowledgable collector that the Swiss gun he sold was real; and probably this person is one of us who thinks he knows his stuff simply because he read all of Jan's book as I have, or Mr Walter's and Mr Kenyon's books. Mistakes happen. This consignor may well be one of the know experts as well, a distinguished colector admired by all; who himself made a mistake and got lazy. Anayway, after the reception Ralph gave me into his own house and into his room with all his prized collection, and the hours he spent with a drooling fool namely me, I find it very hard to believe he set out to take somebody purposely. Jack Hiles Mesa AZ 480 219 6676 |
It is a shame to hear of new collectors being taken as prey. It is always advisable to enquire about a person's reputation from a number of seasoned collectors before making a purchase. It will save you the headache and possible loss of money.
Albert |
After reading this thread, I felt compelled to add my 1.5 cents worth. I agree totally with "hqbmw" about Ralph. He has been in the business too long and not about to allow his reputation to suffer. Also note that he did in fact issue a refund, which, I'm sure came out of his own pocket, since it was a consignment piece and the original money went to the consignor. In other words, he made good. Ralph is in his mid 70's now and is slowing down. He has told me that in his prime, he sold up to 100 lugers a month. It is impossible (my words) to thoroughly check out all of them. Thus he had an iron clad guarantee that he has lived up to. I have spoken to several other long time dealers who have fondness for Ralph and say he would NEVER premeditate a fraudulent deal. As for Chuck's 1906 W + F (proper Ron Wood terminology), no one has considered the possibility that it was fitted with a 9mm barrel in CH by a military armorer. This could have properly come out of CH and NOT be a product of "Waffenfabrik USA". But then, how can one be certain. The issue is now moot as Chuck got his money back and Ralph has the gun back.
|
Doc,
Shattuck had quoted at least two "references" of existing '24 Berns with 9 mm barrels to Chuck that just did not pan out. 1st. book cited was the Bobba book that only showed the known '24/'29 Bern transitional in 9mm (serial # 33092) that was well documented. But this citing does not establish a '24 Bern in 9 mm. The 2nd. book cited was the Horst book that only showed a known '29 Bern in 9 mm. Again this citing does not etablish a '24 Bern in 9mm that left the factory that way... Both references cited did not "prove" the existence of a '24 Bern leaving the factory with an original 9 mm barrel. There was also a claim made to Chuck that over 100 9mm '24 Berns are known...(as Chuck had reported in his opening post). If locally rebarrelled in CH, why would this create a "rareness" of the gun Chuck had purchased to drive the selling price up to $ 4500 ? A very nice conditioned '24 Bern all factory original might go for $ 3000. If rebarreled in CH...does it not just become a rebarrelled "shooter" then...???...even if the new barrel had the right serial number crudely added...??? And if Ron Wood is correct in stating the barrel lug number appeared from Chuck's photo to be "75" and not "73"...then there is a lot more wrong with the piece and it really is a nicely dressed up $ 1200 shooter...certainly not a $ 4500 collector luger. p.s. I do not think the issue with this luger is "moot"...as it will just be offered to the next guy... |
Pete, You are absolutely correct in all you say. I just find it hard for me to believe that all this was made with premeditated desire to pass off a fraudulant piece. Heresay may have been used to quote a putative article, it was not obviously true. It should be pointed out to the seller. I think it was, thus the refund of the money. But, as you say, the next buyer will be a victim, of sorts. When I see the items on the table at Reno, I think "caveat emptor". I also ask you and probably Russ for your takes on the item in question.
|
Another 06/24 Bern claimed to be in 9 mm...
Lots of 9 mm barrels have been showing up on M1929 Berns here in the USA over the past 2-3 years...maybe more are now finding their way onto M1906 W+F's...??? The barrel on this offering on Gun Broker and the photo of the previous gun bought (and returned to the seller) by Chuck Campbell shows a barrel of a little "fatter' profile than the typical pencil-thin 7,65 mm barrels found on Swiss lugers. Rather than a relined or rebored 7,65 barrel to 9mm, these two guns appear to be sporting a fatter barrel altogether... Nothing wrong with a fellow shooter swapping out to a different barrel. As long as it is declared when the piece is sold. This barrel has little swiss crosses added (do not know if the serial is forced matched or not...)...so it was either done in CH for a shooter or done by Waffenfabrik-USA to deceive. This one is being sold out of MN State...not sure that is significant or not. Be careful out there... (as they used to say on the Hills Street Blues TV show). http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=43371152 http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bern_9_1.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bern_9_2.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bern_9_3.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bern_9_4.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bern_9_5.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bern_9_6.jpg |
I liked the term that the gun is always suspect until proven otherwise.
|
06-24 in 9mm -----> Fake...
My 9mm 06-29 (made in 1943): http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...37_29small.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...29_29small.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...15_29small.jpg |
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:32 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1998 - 2026, Lugerforum.com